Is anyone into console gaming [Archive]

Unregistered

08-25-2002, 10:10 PM

dugbug

08-30-2002, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by ECA
Take a celeron chip, a 32 meg card, a cheap audio board, and a propriitary CDROM(for copy protection), and what do you got.
XBOX... Then ask $400-500 for it. Would you pay $400 for the above system... I wouldnt. I can build better for just abit more, and it would have a HD not 128megs of ram ONLY.

we should be able to make comp games that RUN off the CDROM.

Christ, why do people care so much to spread this crap.

Im a PC and an xbox gamer, and a software engineer so Im into these specs. First let me say I love PC gaming (BIG Thief fan), but it is just too much of a hastle. Here is the deal:

GFX GForce 4-ish chip (a little bit of NForce, a little bit of GF3). The NVIDIA design started with the core GF3, stripped PC heratige out (such as the AGP bus), added more geometry features and more pixel shader memory space and some other crap.

Audio *in hardware* dolby digital 5.1.

Memory 64 megs unified (shared) for all tasks. Games that want more audio can budget more ram for that task... as an example.

Storage DVD-9. The only thing proprietary is the encoding on it, the disk itself is the high-density 9 format, which means it can store far more than any other console.

CPU A custom PENTIUM III (not a Celeron) with less on-chip cache. They still have the PENTIUM III floating point SIMD architecture (Intel even pimped their VTUNE app for working with this feature to xbox devs). The CPU is basically a geometry and AI guy in this architecture... the heart is really the GFX chip.

In closing,
The neat thing about xbox is that it goes flame-on all the way for home theater enthusiasts, including dolby digital 5.1 support. It supports all the main resolutions, including widescreen. Almost all games willl output 480p (I think all actually support 480p by default, but I seem to recall one that it didn't work on) and some at 740p and 1080i. Some are widescreen (no stretching... real widescreen). The HDTV enhancements are all optional to the developer, so its a game-by-game thing, but the console itself had home theater in mind for gaming.

It also hands an olive branch to PC gamers (which i where I came into the picture): A harddrive standard. An ethernet standard. No having to buy those ridiculous memory cards all the time. LAN parties are now just clicking xboxes into a hub... no patches, no worring about slow PCs, it all works so well. My LAN party group is now all xbox just for the convenience of it.

Gamecube and PS2 "rulez dood!!!" comments aside, I recommend you look into the system.

Ioman

08-30-2002, 10:30 AM

I have an Xbox at home as well. I have it hooked up to my 55" Mitsubishi 16:9 HDTV. I also have it running through my Yamaha 5.1 Dolby Digital/DTS system using the digital optical out. The Xbox is an amazing piece of hardware and will get even more amazing this fall with Xbox live. You can hook a headset into your controller and talk with those you play against online. There is one password/login for all games too which is a major convenience.

dugbug

08-30-2002, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by Ioman
You can hook a headset into your controller and talk with those you play against online.

Did you see this?

http://www.xbox.com/whacked/whacked-stupid.htm

EDIT:
crap.. they took it down... joecartoon did a whacked ad.

Unregistered

08-30-2002, 03:45 PM

I have an xbox running through composite video and it looks DAMN good and most games i've played are pretty fun. The compelling things about consoles:

1) can play pretty much anywhere. dont need to lug a heavy case, monitor, keyboard, speakers, mouse, etc...
2) you dont have to worry about kids deleting crap off your HD
3) boots up and goes, no need to worry about updating latest drivers, etc.
4) everyone has the same advantage: same controllers, same vid performance, etc
5) playing console games does not cut the "social" aspect of playing games. It's like playing a board game with your friends. However, if you are on your comp your are more isolated. People can't watch you play or comment as easily.

It's just easier. that's why they are doing so well.

ECA

08-30-2002, 05:00 PM

And 3-5 years from introduction, A NEW BETTER version will come out and ALL previous titles are Scrapped, and they make New versions of the SAME progs, that had been made before, they just look prettier...

Ioman

08-30-2002, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by ECA
And 3-5 years from introduction, A NEW BETTER version will come out and ALL previous titles are Scrapped, and they make New versions of the SAME progs, that had been made before, they just look prettier...

haha LMAO, I think ECA is cornered because that comment was just:ioman

You think 3-5 years is short!? Look at it froma computer stand point. 6 months and your video card is outdated lol. At least while the graphics of the xbox get older compared to todays technology, they will still be making games for it!

LinkDJ

08-30-2002, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by Steamroller
Just out of curiosity, is anyone here into console gaming at all?

Long answer yes with a but, short answer no with an except.

Unregistered

09-03-2002, 10:43 AM

I think everyone can get into console gaming if they find the right game. I have been a computer gamer for a while, but I have to admit there are console games which look pretty sweet.

ECA

09-03-2002, 01:27 PM

have you tried some of the Emulators...
The graphics are great on a monitor...
And you can get most of the games off the net.

ECA

09-03-2002, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by Ioman

haha LMAO, I think ECA is cornered because that comment was just:ioman

You think 3-5 years is short!? Look at it froma computer stand point. 6 months and your video card is outdated lol. At least while the graphics of the xbox get older compared to todays technology, they will still be making games for it!

IOMAN, When I upgrade I dont buy another NEW Video for 3-5 years. And then I AIM (generally) 1 under the CURRENT tech for a better price. And that AINT $300-500. More like $100 or LESS. I hear people Moan about the AMIGA's video, TV output, and HERE they LOVE TV output. Its such a waste to have something that CANT be upgraded, or updated. There has been ONE console that COULD be upgraded... Do you know what it WAS...You can still find the Video game machines in alot of places.............................NEO GEO.......

dugbug

09-04-2002, 06:24 AM

Originally posted by ECA

IOMAN, When I upgrade I dont buy another NEW Video for 3-5 years. And then I AIM (generally) 1 under the CURRENT tech for a better price. And that AINT $300-500. More like $100 or LESS. I hear people Moan about the AMIGA's video, TV output, and HERE they LOVE TV output. Its such a waste to have something that CANT be upgraded, or updated. There has been ONE console that COULD be upgraded... Do you know what it WAS...You can still find the Video game machines in alot of places.............................NEO GEO.......

As a PC and (former) AMIGA developer, let me explain something:

Consoles have an advantage over PCs in one simple way. Their specs are not moving targets -- for mostly five years the software guys can do anything they can get away with to get the most out of the box. This is by design. Console builders aspire to have no upgrades that affect developers.

With PCs you don't have that luxury. You have to program to intermediate layers of software that attempt to provide portability to different hardware. This is nice at times because it would be impossible to learn the ins and outs of all the cards you come across in PC land, but it adds to the instability of your end product: What if the end user doesn't have library such and such installed on their pc? You have to ship direct x with your game and hope that by the time they buy your CD directx will be compatible.

You also have OS differences, CPU differences, memory sizes, disk speed, and countless other differences that can vary greatly. This is why most PC games are constantly patched, as are direct x, video drivers, etc. because you have so many "chefs in the kitchen" to get that end product to work (not just work well, work). The problem to the developer is stability of the target platform. Not to mention viruses and a plethora of other problems that plague the PC community.

Yes, you can chase down the latest video card every 3-5 years, but you didn't upgrade your PC motherboard. You didn't upgrade your memory or sound. What about those? Can you keep up for 5 years starting today for $199?

And in the end your gaming experience is compromised as well. You are sitting at a desk looking at what, a 19" monitor at most? Enjoy the higher resoultion, cause thats all you got.

ECA

09-04-2002, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by dugbug

As a PC and (former) AMIGA developer, let me explain something:

Consoles have an advantage over PCs in one simple way. Their specs are not moving targets -- for mostly five years the software guys can do anything they can get away with to get the most out of the box. This is by design. Console builders aspire to have no upgrades that affect developers.

With PCs you don't have that luxury. You have to program to intermediate layers of software that attempt to provide portability to different hardware. This is nice at times because it would be impossible to learn the ins and outs of all the cards you come across in PC land, but it adds to the instability of your end product: What if the end user doesn't have library such and such installed on their pc? You have to ship direct x with your game and hope that by the time they buy your CD directx will be compatible.

You also have OS differences, CPU differences, memory sizes, disk speed, and countless other differences that can vary greatly. This is why most PC games are constantly patched, as are direct x, video drivers, etc. because you have so many "chefs in the kitchen" to get that end product to work (not just work well, work). The problem to the developer is stability of the target platform. Not to mention viruses and a plethora of other problems that plague the PC community.

Yes, you can chase down the latest video card every 3-5 years, but you didn't upgrade your PC motherboard. You didn't upgrade your memory or sound. What about those? Can you keep up for 5 years starting today for $199?

And in the end your gaming experience is compromised as well. You are sitting at a desk looking at what, a 19" monitor at most? Enjoy the higher resoultion, cause thats all you got.

You think??

Wow, then how come MOST software aims at DirectX for sound, and video,, Forget the Drivers of the video card...just directX..

Now on updates... sound blaster aint really done alot in the last 3 years, that could make a difference. 5.1, was a NICE card...

Video drivers only have to be compatible with directX... what a waste. Ms is REALLY trying to kill openGL, and ANY other drivers. the last 3 DirectX dont even support the older cards, including GLIDE, anymore. this is FORCED obsolesence.
do you remember the OLD win 3.11 days and companies makeing game drivers for the CARDS. they dont anymore. They make them for DIRECTX and directX is supposed to make the best of what it has, and can do. What would happen if a GAME used the Video driver, insted....maybe a better video...

dugbug

09-04-2002, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by ECA

Wow, then how come MOST software aims at DirectX for sound, and video,, Forget the Drivers of the video card...just directX..

Obviously because they were getting killed by the PC platform nightmare. You need at least SOME portability and common environment. Even directx is flakey as it is also a moving target. Does YOUR video card support features x,y,z in hardware or are they emulated by the library? Makes a difference to the developer when he is planning his feature set. Now, when you see the picture on the back of the box you won't know if that will be your experience or not.

Now on updates... sound blaster aint really done alot in the last 3 years, that could make a difference. 5.1, was a NICE card...

Video drivers only have to be compatible with directX... what a waste. Ms is REALLY trying to kill openGL, and ANY other drivers. the last 3 DirectX dont even support the older cards, including GLIDE, anymore. this is FORCED obsolesence.
do you remember the OLD win 3.11 days and companies makeing game drivers for the CARDS. they dont anymore. They make them for DIRECTX and directX is supposed to make the best of what it has, and can do. What would happen if a GAME used the Video driver, insted....maybe a better video...

Dude, to each is own.

Im not trying to convince you console gaming is better, but that it has advantages (and disadvantages) to the open platform model. I drop halo in and I play. I don't worry about whether I should apply the latest detonator patch for 5 more fps.

The end.

Ioman

09-04-2002, 09:10 AM

I agree with that Dugbug. There is nothing like the feel of stability.

For a while I believed that computer gaming was coming to an end. It seemed like there were less and less titles doming out for the PC.

Consoles have 3 times the games, and for a reason. There are 3 times the users.

But with the new video cards coming out for the PC, there look to be some great games as well, so I will hang around to see how they are.

ECA

09-04-2002, 04:22 PM

IOMAN:

yes for the stability... But wouldnt it be nice if they made a windows Version JUST for games.. We already have the hardare.
The GRIPe I have for consoles, is that a NEW machine gets the SAME games.. just updated for graphics, and sound. so what they add alittle more to the game, mostly because they have enough RAM.
IO: check the Euopean market... they have a 10 to 1 release of games compared to the US.. They have titles we will NEVER see.
More users for a Console, yes. WHY, because the parents dont have to worry about RESETING up the software, NO virus, plug it in and it plays.

Look at whats in the Xbox... Price the components, except the custom CDROM. Would you PAY that much for what it has, in a REAL computer case.

Ioman

09-04-2002, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by ECA
Look at whats in the Xbox... Price the components, except the custom CDROM. Would you PAY that much for what it has, in a REAL computer case.

I think you nailed it on the head right there. Parents see computers as primarily for educational purposes, and consoles for gaming. Why spend $1K on a computer for gaming when you can buy an Xbox for $299?

I think its a matter of money. This is why the average computer gamer is older than the average console gamer. Dollar wise, there is no better bang for your buck when it comes to consoles. They are cheap and have more games. Simply put.

ECA

09-04-2002, 07:43 PM

most of the tech on the xbox is 3 years old...
If you paid $1000 for a comp, remember thats a MONITOR, NEWORK, CDRW and a LARGE HD... You dont get a TV with the XBOX, and you dont get storage and networking is finally coming out.
Your comp. you can upgrade 1 bit at a time. NOT a console.
Your comp, you can change the AUDIO to something better.
Video, Network cards, modems, ram and MORE storage.
If they would PORt the XBOX OS to the comp, that WOULD be neet.

dugbug

09-05-2002, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by ECA
most of the tech on the xbox is 3 years old...
If you paid $1000 for a comp, remember thats a MONITOR, NEWORK, CDRW and a LARGE HD... You dont get a TV with the XBOX, and you dont get storage and networking is finally coming out.
Your comp. you can upgrade 1 bit at a time. NOT a console.
Your comp, you can change the AUDIO to something better.
Video, Network cards, modems, ram and MORE storage.
If they would PORt the XBOX OS to the comp, that WOULD be neet.

$1000... $199... $1000... $199... Different market, different goals.
Your large HD cannot be assumed by the game makers, nor can they assume you have incredible resolution monitor or a DVD player vs CD player for the delivery media.

also You don't require a monitor (and space for it) with consoles... they snap right into your home theater. Not a real advantage. Take the $800 and go buy 16 games.

Hey, Ill give everyone an example of something. A console HDrive is dedicated to the game. Ie: identical specs and caching and storage space for your game for every console without exception. What can developers do with it?

http://www.xbox.com/blinx/exp/exp1-blinx-default.asp

dugbug

09-05-2002, 08:24 AM

Ah crap, you have to be registered with the xbox forum to get to the article, so Ill save everyone some time. Lots of drippy marketing sap, but they are trying to show you how a console-oriented game would make use of the harddrive. In otherwords, the HD is there for gaming, not OS services, word processing, etc.

There were a number of people who thought that a hard drive was overkill in a game console. Enter Blinx: The Time Sweeper. Here's a game that uses the hard disk in such a unique way, they were able to patent it. And that's the X-Factor of it—the time controls in Blinx are only possible on Xbox.

Here's how it works: as you play, you collect "time crystals." Collect three of the same type and you gain a time power. Record actions, play them back and have dual characters cooperate to complete challenges. Throw the world into slow motion while moving about in real-time, fast-forward to achieve goals more quickly, or even rewind the world to gain more chances to complete challenges, open hidden areas, and more. Then you use these time controls strategically throughout the game to get an edge on your opponents, or get into areas you wouldn't be able to otherwise.

There are also non-strategic places to use time controls—because the visual effects are that cool. For instance, freeze time and then run around in the water… you leave a trench behind you like walking through a snow drift. Visually impressive, but visually clever as well.

In case you wonder about such things, here's why (in very broad terms): The game accesses about 200MB of the hard drive to constantly cache the game information. As you invoke the time controls, the game looks to the cached information. Then it can replay, rewind, and manipulate gameplay any way you need to show a time control. So we got a whole new gameplay direction in Blinx, I think it's really going to expand how games are developed. (Good thing they patented it.)

ECA

09-05-2002, 01:39 PM

Ok, a dream, that wont come true..
Windows CORE on an EEPROM, and settings loaded onto a RAM card at startup.
What you gain.. SPEED, SPEED SPEED.
Then why dont we have a Video board that will RUN on our TV's anymore. WHY does a COMP have to display at 60+hz to our monitors. Esp if we are Generally only playing games. Why not have it on our 27" TVs.(tell me where, and I'll get one, I hate using a monitor all the time, and it needs 128 megs and DirectX9 capability)
IS DirectX on the Xbox?? which one?
How about a second drive in the system FOR game manipulation, and use..Thats to easy..
HOW about being able to have ON the xbox, saved games, main data storage of multiple games.. so what you have to be able to clean it up, every once in awhile, (erase the old, install the new). HOW about being able to UPDATE the drive to a larger, or faster drive...

dang

09-05-2002, 06:45 PM

The XBOX comes with a 10g drive where you store games, etc. You can even insert a music cd and rip it to wma, where the files are stored on the xbox's internal drive.

ECA

09-05-2002, 08:34 PM

Ripping a 650-700 meg audio to a 10g HD, in wma format. But can you STORE them on it for later playing?? What bit rate.
BUT, can we get, and PUT a 120 GIG HD in it.

Just give me a site with all the hardware info...

dugbug

09-06-2002, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by ECA
Ripping a 650-700 meg audio to a 10g HD, in wma format. But can you STORE them on it for later playing?? What bit rate.
BUT, can we get, and PUT a 120 GIG HD in it.

Just give me a site with all the hardware info...

Couple of things: The HD is used for game caching, game saving, and audio ripping. Most xbox games allow you to play your own ripped music instead of the ingame selection. The xbox will only use 8 gig of any drive (part of keeping specs identical).

Hacking the xbox is not very simple (I wouldn't do it), but here is a site:
http://www.xboxhackz.com

Some tech info...

Graphics architecture
http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=882/ddj0008a/0008a.htm

Audio
http://www.techtv.com/extendedplay/videofeatures/story/0,24330,3335792,00.html

Anandtech
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1561&p=1

llbbl

09-09-2002, 02:54 PM

What can you do with the hacks? Does the X-Box let you transfer the music off its HD across a broadband connection. I am assuming that the NIC is built in or the adapter is on the market. That is cool if you don't want to go all the way to your computer to rip a song, even though I am not too excitied about the wma format. With mp3, I think, you have more flexibility when deciding what codec and bit rate to encode at. Also what if you have a Ipod, does that even support wma? It's the best mp3 player on the market these days, but I doubt that Apple would include the decoder for that audio format. I guess you could always convert wma to mp3, but then what is the big advantage of using the X-Box. You don't tie up your computer with encoding? I would rather have my 2nd or 3rd computer do it and have the freedom to choose my audio recording settings.

Ioman

09-09-2002, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by vindisco
What can you do with the hacks? Does the X-Box let you transfer the music off its HD across a broadband connection. I am assuming that the NIC is built in or the adapter is on the market. That is cool if you don't want to go all the way to your computer to rip a song, even though I am not too excitied about the wma format. With mp3, I think, you have more flexibility when deciding what codec and bit rate to encode at. Also what if you have a Ipod, does that even support wma? It's the best mp3 player on the market these days, but I doubt that Apple would include the decoder for that audio format. I guess you could always convert wma to mp3, but then what is the big advantage of using the X-Box. You don't tie up your computer with encoding? I would rather have my 2nd or 3rd computer do it and have the freedom to choose my audio recording settings.

They have a new version of the iPod which was built for the PC, this version should support WMA audio formats.

I own an Xbox and I think that ripping music to the hard drive is kind of a gimmic. The only good thing I see out of it is that you can listen to different music rather than the music that is on the game DVD. But even then, I don't listen to the ripped music. Does anyone?:confused:

ECA

09-09-2002, 07:20 PM

Interesting articles, the last was the best. But there was NO tech info.. Didnt even mention digitizeing sound, and really the graphic abilitys arnt any better then what I had on the amiga 500.. So what it has High res graphics ability, it cant display them to a TV... even the HD TV, would have better graphics, but even those are limited...

Originally posted by dugbug

Couple of things: The HD is used for game caching, game saving, and audio ripping. Most xbox games allow you to play your own ripped music instead of the ingame selection. The xbox will only use 8 gig of any drive (part of keeping specs identical).

Hacking the xbox is not very simple (I wouldn't do it), but here is a site:
http://www.xboxhackz.com

Some tech info...

Graphics architecture
http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=882/ddj0008a/0008a.htm

Audio
http://www.techtv.com/extendedplay/videofeatures/story/0,24330,3335792,00.html

Anandtech
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1561&p=1

llbbl

11-15-2002, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Ioman

They have a new version of the iPod which was built for the PC, this version should support WMA audio formats.

I own an Xbox and I think that ripping music to the hard drive is kind of a gimmic. The only good thing I see out of it is that you can listen to different music rather than the music that is on the game DVD. But even then, I don't listen to the ripped music. Does anyone?:confused:

What do you mean by ripped ? :)

ECA

11-15-2002, 09:39 PM

VIN is VERY BORED.....

RIPPED=TAKE off from the original, or a copied format.

You'v hit a few OLD topics Vin....Are you THAT bored.

llbbl

11-15-2002, 10:37 PM

Some oldies but goodies that I haven't looked at for a while, figured that I would bring them around for one more shot.

I didn't mean to aggrevate you. MY post was kind of misleading because what I meat was to poke fun at how the sentence " But even then, I don't listen to the ripped music. Does anyone? " could be taken out of context to mean copied music in general.

If I had an Xbox than I could probably also afford to own a DVD player to go along the side. If I had a DVD player than I am sure I could find a stereo some place to hook it up to. Then I wouldn't have to worry about ripping music on my Xbox.

ECA

11-15-2002, 10:53 PM

i RIPP MUSIC OFF OF MY gAME cd'S... mOST IS mp3 ANYWAY.
aND YES i DO lISTEN TO IT OFF MY hd.

DizzyG

11-18-2002, 01:48 PM

I bought my xbox this weekend but for a good reason. I was trying to hold off until Christmas as a gift to myself. I wanted to use it as a DVD player because my apex (*cough ** CRAP ** cough*) was dying. It never held the audio/video synch well but lately had gotten worse. Then it started skipping and shutting off and I decided it was going to be replaced. I even told it that I was going to replace it if it didn't shape up, but it didn't care. Anyway, Saturday morning I laid down on the cough to fight off the hangover with a good movie and it completely died, wouldn't even go to its own logo screen let alone play a movie. So, I bought an Xbox - advanced AV connector and dvd playback kit, along with EA NHL 2003.
The Advanced AV connector has rca (left and right) audio, S-video and Fiber Optical outs to connect to your reciever for digital sound. It sounds great, the dvd video looks terrific and it holds audio/video synch like any mass consumer product should. I'm veryhappy and I have a new gaming console. I'll be getting myself the xbox-live (play online) kit for myself for christmas and because I have no concious, probably a mod chip (I know I'll have to remove/disable it to play online). ***disclaimer...only for backup purposes. and I live in canada (eat it microsoft).

Ooh, I'm also happy with it because if I only use it as a DVD player and don't buy/rent games microsoft loses money...that's right...give it to the man!
Diz

llbbl

11-19-2002, 10:22 AM

How can you use it only as a DVD player if you already bought a game for it? You could probably get a better DVD player than the Xbox (progressive scan, mp3 player) for the money. Also how can you say screw MSft if you go out and buy their products?

I'm relectant to buy a Xbox because its made by Msft and I am relectant to buy a PS2 because it is made by Sony (RIAA). I do however want to purchase a gamecube. Well that and a new computer / video card :)

bdonn

11-21-2002, 11:01 AM

Console gaming is awesome, I'm not big into PC gaming. Last game I really got into for PC was Starcraft.

I would rather sit in front of my TV with my surround sound and play. Just picked up a Gamecube Platinum with Metroid Prime 2 days ago. Great game.

ECA

11-21-2002, 12:58 PM

Moo3 will be out soon.
Stars 2, will be coming out in awhile.
Tribes 2 has a NEW patch.(try to patch a console game)
Some time in the future ELITE 4 will come out.

Ioman

11-21-2002, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by bdonn
Console gaming is awesome, I'm not big into PC gaming. Last game I really got into for PC was Starcraft.

I would rather sit in front of my TV with my surround sound and play. Just picked up a Gamecube Platinum with Metroid Prime 2 days ago. Great game.

How is Metroid? I saw the ratings of that game over at Videogames.com and they gave it an 9.7 which is almost a perfect score and certainly unheard of for Videogames.com. I think the game looks great! Is there HDTV support at all for it?

Ioman

11-21-2002, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by ECA
Moo3 will be out soon.
Stars 2, will be coming out in awhile.
Tribes 2 has a NEW patch.(try to patch a console game)
Some time in the future ELITE 4 will come out.

Don't forget Doom3 is coming out soon and Unreal too.

and to your comment about patching a console game....there are usually no bugs to begin with and thus no need to patch the console game anyways!

But with the introduction of online gaming to the console world, like Xbox live or Playstation 2/ Game Cube, don't be surprised to see patches available for download anyways!

llbbl

11-21-2002, 09:36 PM

So Many Games, So Little Time

ECA

11-21-2002, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by Ioman

Don't forget Doom3 is coming out soon and Unreal too.

and to your comment about patching a console game....there are usually no bugs to begin with and thus no need to patch the console game anyways!

But with the introduction of online gaming to the console world, like Xbox live or Playstation 2/ Game Cube, don't be surprised to see patches available for download anyways!

Online gameing, with consoles... cant they be satified that the games cost $40-60 EACH, let alone trying to get another $10-20 a month to play online with a 56k modem???

llbbl

11-22-2002, 10:17 AM

ECA you know that they now have broadband adapters and the network built to support high speed online console gaming. (if your keeping track that is 4 adjetives used to describe gaming :) )

DizzyG

11-22-2002, 10:45 AM

Microsoft loses a ton of money every time someone buys an xbox. They make all of their money in the xbox division from the games and the packages you have to buy in order to develop games for the xbox. I forget the exact number but for every xbox sold when they were $250 a piece they lost like $100. Now they dropped to $199 and next week are going down to $150, you do the math, it's a ton. They also just released the report from the last year saying how much the xbox division of microsoft lost something like $177mil in 3 months. Now, I did buy one game, but I'll be using it mostly as a DVD player. I do like to play games, that's why I bought the Xbox as a DVD/game console and I remember reading that you can mod the xbox to be a progressive scan DVD player. Also, the mod chips are coming out pretty regularily for xbox now, yet another reason to get one if you hate microsoft *I do not encourage or use mod chips*.
Diz

here's the article
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2480001.stm

llbbl

11-22-2002, 11:01 AM

Just because MS$ looses money everytime someone buys one doesn't make me want to go out and get it. I would be supporting the company by purchasing one. I would RATHER support Nintendo who has a stellar record, in my view, when compared to MS$.

The price their products to make the most money. That is why software is so expensive, it is much easier to release than new versions of hardware. Also I would have to assume that they loose LESS money as time goes on becasue the price of components drops fairly quickly. I think they put everything together down in Mexico, but I am not sure where the components are made, or when for that matter.

senoryoshio

11-22-2002, 01:37 PM

Firstly...I have nothing against Nintendo, there's a GC in my living room. But are you questioning MS's record as a console production company or as a whole amalgamation of every MS division, ever? Ideally we would be comparing with just the XBOX division, and I don't think that there really has been enough time for them to develop a real record. And when you look at the cost of software for the XBOX the cost is the same as pretty much any GC or PS2 game. So I don't really know where I'm going with this...I want to give MS a chance in the console arena.

ECA

11-22-2002, 04:10 PM

MS releases win95 at a lose..Why?
To garner MORE people into the MS band wagon.
Win95 had few problems, but could have been better. Win 95 B was released and did very well, AT FULL price.
This is the STANDARD MS practice.

They NOw have there name out there, and PEOPLE that are satisfied with MS(NON-POWER users) LOOK for MS products, because they DONT KNOW, what they are missing, and that the products are TO EXPENSIVE for what they get.

So, what they loose on the sale of the machine. They make up on the sale of Progs, and Internet gaming. $50 for the game, $10 a month for the net.. Perpetual Money.

Name of this SCAM....THE HOOK.
Give them something for FREE, and they have to PAY to use it.

senoryoshio

11-22-2002, 05:38 PM

at the risk of becoming unpopular (or increasingly moreso)...without this scam to make money there would be no Microsoft and I think the same could be said for many companies that need $$ to survive. Sure I don't like paying for power, phone, utilities, and internet connection every month....but you are buying a service aren't you? Maybe I'm just confused about things here....I realize that things like online gaming are things I'm not used to paying extra for, but I just don't usually play those types of games.

ECA

11-22-2002, 06:47 PM

The problem with MS, as I see it.
Is they DONT tell people what is happening.
Do you think the ATARI, machines went into debt on there consoles. No. 4 companies were macking games for it, and it wasnt ONLY Atari.

to make a game for the XBOX, you have to get a copyright OK from MS.. How much? ALOT.
Who is making the games for the XBox... MS is HAVING them made.

Ioman

11-22-2002, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by ECA

Online gameing, with consoles... cant they be satified that the games cost $40-60 EACH, let alone trying to get another $10-20 a month to play online with a 56k modem???

Dude, go to the Xbox, Playstation2, Gamecube home pages. They all have broadband adapters, the Xbox is ONLY broadband compatible. Some computers stilol use 56K modems last time I checked as well ;)

Also the last time I checked, computer games are still selling for $40-$60 dollars as well unless they are older games which of course sell for cheaper, the same applies to console games.

Everquest costs money to play online as well. So does Anarchy online etc... I think it all depends on the game. You should open your mind a little ECA and get a chance to play around with some game consoles, they can be a lot of fun....

Ioman

11-22-2002, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by senoryoshio
Firstly...I have nothing against Nintendo, there's a GC in my living room. But are you questioning MS's record as a console production company or as a whole amalgamation of every MS division, ever? Ideally we would be comparing with just the XBOX division, and I don't think that there really has been enough time for them to develop a real record. And when you look at the cost of software for the XBOX the cost is the same as pretty much any GC or PS2 game. So I don't really know where I'm going with this...I want to give MS a chance in the console arena.

I agree. Most console gaming companies lose money on the system itself and hope to make up the money and earn profit through royalties. Microsoft is no different. They simply need to be able to keep the console on the market for a long period of time in order to make a good amount of profit. Microsoft is no different than Nintendo or Sony when it comes to console gaming and their business plan. The difference is that Microsoft is newer to this market and thus people/consumers are usually slower to adopt a new gaming console....especially when there are two proven entities already on the market (Sony and Nintendo).

ECA, you are seriously giving the impression that you simply hate Microsoft an incredible amount, thus I have to come to the conclusion that your posts are biased and so I am disregarding them...hehe. I have been following the home game console market for quite a while and I know how this market works. Microsoft is doing nothing different than Sony or Nintendo, they are simply newer to this market.

ECA

11-22-2002, 08:16 PM

And I know that 60+% of the US, dont, and cant get HIGH speed access, so whats the use.
Let alone, trying to network it with your Comp highspeed access.

Ioman

11-23-2002, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by ECA
And I know that 60+% of the US, dont, and cant get HIGH speed access, so whats the use.
Let alone, trying to network it with your Comp highspeed access.

But the fact remains that playing online with a console is now not much different than playing online with a computer.

:D

llbbl

11-23-2002, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Ioman

But the fact remains that playing online with a console is now not much different than playing online with a computer.

:D

From hardware to software the entire system and gameplay is quite different than most PC games.

What makes you decide when you have purchased gaming consoles in the past. Is it based solely on the hardware performance and number of games?

To me the business ethics of the company matter more than some. If they support organizations such as the RIAA than I will not support that company by purchasing their products. If I don't agree with the company but want to play a game that is offered on their system; I would rather wait buy the game 2nd hand for the PC and sell it when I am done.

ECA

11-23-2002, 10:18 PM

My main concern, is that the Original machines, that were made as consoles, lasted 5 years, before upgrades, or new machines came out. The OS in the machines was OPEN to anyone that wanted it, and ALOT of companies made GAMES.

The NEW machines last 2-3 years, and the OS is propritary(no one can use it).

With the knowledge that is OUT there, why dont they make a Console that can be upgraded, with an OPEN OS, or will work with any environment.
Having a console with a Bootable OS, that would Load ANY OS, and then have games run under that OS. WOW, NEET..
You could set it up to do anything, not just games.

llbbl

11-24-2002, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by ECA
My main concern, is that the Original machines, that were made as consoles, lasted 5 years, before upgrades, or new machines came out. The OS in the machines was OPEN to anyone that wanted it, and ALOT of companies made GAMES.

The NEW machines last 2-3 years, and the OS is propritary(no one can use it).

With the knowledge that is OUT there, why dont they make a Console that can be upgraded, with an OPEN OS, or will work with any environment.
Having a console with a Bootable OS, that would Load ANY OS, and then have games run under that OS. WOW, NEET..
You could set it up to do anything, not just games.

What console are talking about that had a OS open to anyone whom wanted it? I don't think the console companies have ever done this. Also did the NES even have an OS ?

What are you basing this 2-3 estimate on?

You could upgrade a console OS using the high speed adapter that you can purchase seperately. If they even do it at all.

The dreamcast is able to boot a different OS so you could play games that are not exactly legal. I am sure there are alot of hacks out there to allow the other systems to run OS that they were not desgined to, like making them into a linux box or something. So you can already do what you thinking about to some console systems.

The idea is not to turn the console into a PC that runs any application that you want it to. By keeping a specfic set of hardware and OS software on any particular console they are making the job of the programmer much easier. If you want a living room PC, HP and Gateway sell them.

ECA

11-24-2002, 05:25 PM

I ASKED, why they dont have an OPEN OS system.

And Why consoles ARNT, computers..
They REALLY are, but limited to the max.

and NEO GEO.

llbbl

11-24-2002, 06:41 PM

Upgrading the OS isn't going to make the system better. Most consoles don't have an OS similar to what we find on the PC. Only Xbox, so far, has included a hard drive in the machine. All other gaming systems have a stripped down OS that does very basic things like load a game and check for copy protection which are located on board. They are embedded systems. This limits what OS you can put on the system to what you can load into its RAM and what it can access by its disk drive.

Look you can't go around making generalized statements. Saying stuff like consoles are just computers but limited to the max is like me saying my Dell 733 Mhz w/ 30 Gig ATA drive is just like a SGI 128 Processor Server running a SCSI RAID array, but it is limited to the max. A personal computer in designed to do a certain number of things while a console is made to do one thing specficially.

As for the NEO GEO it seems to me that it never had a real OS as to the reasons stated above. I believe it too was an imbedded system. I don't think they had DSP chips back then. DSP chips were created by Texas Instruments to act as RAM, but are able to retain information and can be updated or reprogrammed like BIOS chips. Anyways I don't think they can hold alot of information on the chip and require a small amount of voltage. I haven't heard or read much about them for a while so my facts could be off.