Talk Back: Smart Displays, Dumb Idea

[dang]

We just posted a new Talk Back: Smart Displays, Dumb Idea (http://news.designtechnica.com/talkback11.html)


While at the 2002 Comdex show and this year’s CES show I noticed a huge trend among electronics manufacturers; Air panels. What a terrible idea...

[Ioman]

I think that a lot of people confuse Smart Displays with Tablet PC's. Personally I think both are a waste. Smart displays are too expensive and the screen is too smal and Tablet PC's are just another novelty that is bad because the software recognition doesn't work well.

[flashfire]

I have a table PC that sucks if you have to type with it. A pocket pc that is wireless and hooks to my cell if wireless is unavailable (ex. in traffic) that allows me to monitor email and runs some server monitoring, etc. My new P4 2.5 GHZ laptop is 802.11G capable. Personally, there is absolutely no use for a piece of hardware that is crippled, and by its very use it will cripple my main workstation. I can pick up my laptop and use it anywhwere with full functionality and full blown wireless or Cell Dial-Up ability. When we can embed lcd polymers into anything and make it a monitor then that will be cool.

[Ioman]

For those of you who are not sure what a smart display/Air panel is go here: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/smartdisplay/default.asp

This will explain what they are and how they work.

A Smart Display is a wireless, touch screen monitor that lets you access and use your home computer from different rooms in your home. Surf the Web from the couch, check e-mail messages while lying in bed, download recipes in the kitchen, or share digital pictures on the patio.

[pdxflyboy]

Jeez for that price it isnt worth it, if it was in the range of 300-500 it might be a viable solution for people who dont like cables, but for $1300+ they wont beat laptops.

[kepaloha]

Very good information, I was looking at that and thinking of almost the same problems. I didn't think about the problem with your desktop though. I didn't occur to me that if your useing the Smart Display that you couldn't use your desktop. hmm not a very Smart Display.

Thank your Ioman for the information.

[senoryoshio]

And no one has said anything about Ian's headshot yet?:P

Anyway...I learned a lot about these displays when I wrote that DesXcape arty, the smart display is a great idea but it should've just been left at that...an idea.

[pdxflyboy]

Originally posted by senoryoshio
And no one has said anything about Ian's headshot yet?:P


GhaAAHAHHAHA

[RageSlave]

New and innovative ways to separate you from your money. Hell, if you each send me a check for ..say/...$ 500 USD you'll save in the long run, And I would be your friend. You win twice :)

[dang]

Hmm.but is that a "wise" investment?

[Ioman]

What totally blows my mind is that Microsoft wants you to upgrade your OS to the professional version in order to use the remote desktop abilities. That means that those at home that I am 99% sure have the home edition will need to upgrade their operating system just to use these bleeding edge products. What a waste of time and money...

[Archon]

please, its just a portable monitor

[questionlp]

One little nit to pick about your "editorial" regarding wireless Smart Displays. The Viewsonic airpanel V150 includes a free Windows XP Professional upgrade with the package:

http://viewsonic.com/products/airpanel_airpanelv150.htm

I do have to agree that $1200-1300 is quite expensive for such a limited device, mostly when you could pay a bit more and get yourself a fully functional (well, kind of) Tablet PC that would also support use of Remote Desktop clients.

Where I possibly see a use of these things are for datacenter people who need to remotely log into say a Windows 2000/2003 server via Terminal Services without dealing with KVM's or may need to roam while working. Of course, in reality... who would be NUTS to have WiFi in a "secure" datacenter, mostly one that would allow a wireless display which doesn't support additional security features like 802.1x or non-CE compatible VPN clients (though there are some VPN clients that support IPSEC and PPTP that do run on the Pocket PC CE platform).

For me, I've already got a laptop that I can roam around with, but wired to a switch that can drool at 100Mbps :D

BTW - dang: love the cactrot avatar :)

[Ioman]

Originally posted by questionlp
One little nit to pick about your "editorial" regarding wireless Smart
Displays. The Viewsonic airpanel V150 includes a free Windows XP
Professional upgrade with the package:

http://viewsonic.com/products/airpanel_airpanelv150.htm

I do have to agree that $1200-1300 is quite expensive for such a limited
device, mostly when you could pay a bit more and get yourself a fully
functional (well, kind of) Table PC that would also support use of
Remote Desktop clients.

Where I possibly see a use of these things are for datacenter people who
need to remotely log into say a Windows 2000/2003 server via Terminal
Services without dealing with KVM's or may need to roam while working.
Of course, in reality... who would be NUTS to have WiFi in a "secure"
datacenter, mostly one that would allow a wireless display which doesn't
support additional security features like 802.1x or non-CE compatible
VPN clients (though there are some VPN clients that support IPSEC and
PPTP that do run on the Pocket PC CE platform).

For me, I've already got a laptop that I can roam around with, but
wired to a switch that can drool at 100Mbps :D

Thanks for the post Linh. Do you feel that Smart Displays are being marketed as consumer products or for the work place though? When I go to Microsof'ts website I get the feeling that they are really marketing them towards consumers.

Another thing I have to wonder is that if they ARE in fact marketing to professionals, what security protocols are in place to make these a secure product in the work place.

[questionlp]

Originally posted by Ioman
Thanks for the post Linh. Do you feel that Smart Displays are being marketed as consumer products or for the work place though? When I go to Microsof'ts website I get the feeling that they are really marketing them towards consumers.

Another thing I have to wonder is that if they ARE in fact marketing to professionals, what security protocols are in place to make these a secure product in the work place.
No problem. I think Microsoft is marketing the Smart Display towards the consumer and possibly the prosumer market rather than to the "professionals"... at least that's what their site is displaying the stuff as.

I think they (Microsoft and the manufacturers like Viewsonic) are trying to make a buck out of the coolness factor of not only wireless but also touch-sensitive flat-panel displays that are also portable... maybe to those that just have too much money waiting to be spent on something so... yuppie-like.

I could not find anything on their (Microsoft's) site regarding what security features the Smart Displays incorporate nor did I find anything on Viewsonic's site. I mean, which WEP encryption level can it use and how configurable are those things? I know Windows CE and CE.NET all support the fundamental WiFi security stuff, but is it user-accessible? I wouldn't want to send my credit card information or passwords (non-HTTPS sites or god forbid, via Telnet) over a wireless connection that I may not have full control or knowledge of what security measures have been put into place.

In order for it to succeed outside of the consumer market and into the IT professional market is support for the security features touted by Microsoft when it comes to WiFi (802.1x, EAP, some form of VPN) and possibly support for third-party security bits like Cisco's LEAP and possibly RADIUS/TACACS authentication. I know some companies require Smart Card or some other form of secondary authentication before the wireless user can even get access to the controlled network.

That's why I'm sticking with wired networks both at home and at work.

BTW - you're an Oregonian as well?

[Ioman]

I don't think that Microsoft has too much faith in this standard because they are not marketing it very heavily. BTW, I find it interesting that ViewSonic is giving a free Windows XP upgrade with their airpanels. I don't think they are that big of a company so perhaps Microsoft has convinced them to spend money on R&D to develop their Air Panel and then has left them high and dry? While at Comdex I saw a lot of web tablets (like a tablet PC but without the keyboard) that were using GPRS/ WiFi standards. Viewsonic was marketing them towards the work environment, specifically UPS, truck drivers etc.

I am in Sherwood, where are you located? Good to see another Oregonian! Welcome to the site btw Linh, I look forward to chatting with you!:)

[questionlp]

Viewsonic may not be an IBM or a Dell, but I think it didn't cost them a whole lot more to enter into the Tablet PC and Smart Display market since they could just use their own LCD technologies. Viewsonic also makes PDA's (though most likely through another OEM, possibly Compal) and a slightly different version of the Smart Display (using almost all of the same components and software) as a large tablet-style PDA running CE.

I don't know if the cost of the upgrade is just rolled into the price of the unit or if it's subsidized somehow either via volume reseller discounts or connections with companies like Tech Data or Ingram Micro.

I still think that the Tablet PC will end up burying the Smart Display sales... and if it does, Viewsonic can just re-work the ones they still have and turn them into something else, presumably for UPS and other companies.

I'm in Beaverton... so not that far away (distance) and travel time isn't that far off so long as 99W and HWY 217 aren't involved :D

[dang]

I thinkg Philips smart panel uses windows ce, doesn't it?
I do like my avatar. :)

[questionlp]

I think all of the smart displays and panels use Windows CE or CE.NET in order to support Remote Desktop. I know rdesktop for UNIX works with Terminal Services but I haven't tried it work Remote Desktop on Windows XP, but I doubt Microsoft would allow that to be used ;)

[gorkon]

This thing is just a DUMBED down extension of Windows CE. Windows CE for Smart Displays. Basically, it's CE with just the Remote Desktop Connection stuff and a way to automate the stuff when you lift it out of the cradle and all. If you want something liek this, a cheap laptop or a dedicated super pda like the Viewsonic Viewpad 100. Streaming would be, and IS possible and very workable on 802.11b. I stream everyday with my Toshiba e740 and it works just fine. Why it would not work on these is the remote desktop stuff is VERY hoggish and the sound that does come down is not very good (not even AM quality). At least that's been my experience using Remote Desktop with a ME based laptop (old PII 366 MHz). I still want a ViewPad 100! Dahrool dahrool!

[Ioman]

Originally posted by gorkon
This thing is just a DUMBED down extension of Windows CE. Windows CE for Smart Displays. Basically, it's CE with just the Remote Desktop Connection stuff and a way to automate the stuff when you lift it out of the cradle and all. If you want something liek this, a cheap laptop or a dedicated super pda like the Viewsonic Viewpad 100. Streaming would be, and IS possible and very workable on 802.11b. I stream everyday with my Toshiba e740 and it works just fine. Why it would not work on these is the remote desktop stuff is VERY hoggish and the sound that does come down is not very good (not even AM quality). At least that's been my experience using Remote Desktop with a ME based laptop (old PII 366 MHz). I still want a ViewPad 100! Dahrool dahrool!

Agreed. I am not impressed with Microsoft's remote desktop software in the slightest. It literally renders these Smart Displays useless in my opinion. What a shame too.

[questionlp]

The Remote Desktop protocol used in Terminal Services and XP's Remote Desktop is a highly trimmed down and castrated protocol compared to Citrix's ICA (I think that's the name) protocol for thin clients. Citrix ICA can easily handle passing video and audio through a slower connection.

You can maybe view and listen to stuff over Remote Desktop, but don't expect it to be super responsive or smooth since all that bitmap and decoded audio must be passed through your connection and re-processed by the processor in those pads (which is same one in an e740 or the 5450). On your PDA, it doesn't have to process the data passed on via Remote Desktop as well as handling the video/audio when listening to an MP3 or watching an MPEG or Windows Media file directly on your PDA. The "experience" worsens as the WiFi signal degrades down to say 1Mbps or 2Mbps, mostly when you are using WEP.

[ECA]

what would be the difference to a small laptop, with accessories(laser wand or such) with remote wireless, to do anything.
The laptop would have storage, and other nice abilities over a dumb terminal.

[gorkon]

There isn't. Even though this thing is a little more intelligent then a dumb terminal, there's not much you can do short of reprogramming it with Linux or something. The OS is ok, but the real problem here isn't CE, it's that it's dumbed down CE. If it was just a Super PDA with RDC abilities, I could see buying it. But it appears you can't do much with it away from your computer and your house so, it's worthless. Plus, who wants to bet that the WiFi gateway that comes with it isn't a full WAP. Probably restricts it to ONE IP and if it does use wep, it will only use wep. IE, no MAC filtering or anything like that. Granted, even a Linksys is not fuilly secure, I bet that this thing probably just has the basics....nothing beyond that. Oh, at least they GIVE you XP Pro with this.....G, thanks.

I want a ViewPad! :) Think I made my point? It appears that the one reseller on Viewsonic's web page has discontinued them....wonder If I can get one cheap? This thing would be a good replacement for my laptop(The ViewPad 150, not the airpanel). I am STILL disappointed that I cannot obtain a free and workable Java client for PPC. Pocket IE is anemic. Here's hoping the next version of PPC has a more capable IE. Sorry for straying from the topic, but I want a very small, almost fully functional web viewing pad. One that HAS a brain. Not this dumbed down airpanel thing.

[digitaladvisor]

Hey guys,

Maybe I'm got this thing wrong here.

Yes there other remote devices etc.

Yes the Air Panel is expensive.

But please consider the following:

I have Radeon Dual Display Setup.
I have a HD Display 50" Plasma setup as seconsary display.
The Air Panel is the primary display.
Now I want to startup a DVD movie on the Plasma.
But in Hydravision I instructed the DVd software to display on the secondary monitor - not the primary one.
Whist the DVD is playing the Plsama only with other watching the movie, I wish to check on email and quickly browse the internet.

Am I right or wrong in such application?

Yes a notebook I suppose could take control of the PC remotely but the Air Panel is just that - a Panel of Windoes that I can carry around with me doing things like word processing and home automation stuff via centralised HTPC in the lounge.

As for the negative - a very expensive remote but perhaps with the software designed by the following it makes more real world sense:

http://www.mynevo.com/spec_smd.htm

BTW: The viewsonic with this software will mimick all the remotes in home theatre situation. This means the AirPanel would turn on TV, control the Home theatre amp , turn up the volume etc etc.

As for playing DVD or HDTV on it - I'd give that miss but for other more appropiate applications it seems to me at least a good fit.

You guys got other ways to do this, I know, but the above represents a brilliant application that works.

BTW: I live in Australia and we are entering a major HDTV uptake phase with HDTV tuner cards being released for the PC in High definition DVB-T format with Dolby Digital sound. Our satellite system is DVB-S and is easily installed into computer systems as well. Optus Australia just put into space a new satellite in preparation for a major update on interactive digital televsion by Foxtel in HD/SD.

Of course we have the STB poliferation as well which BTW - I have distinct distaste for. Heck how many black boxes are we going to put into our lounge room to get various multimedia services.

On a positive note:

Guys would you like to hare other methods in practical application like this - yes Citrix I know about already and was unaware of higher bandwidth capability compared to Air Panels.

Just my two cents worth....

Regards

DigitalAdvisor

[ECA]

And a laptop or palm top could do the same, with IR already built in. Probably for less. And also has storage.

TRUE?

[Cloud]

And if you take the Airpanel out of the cradle does your movie still play on the Plasma display!? The way I have heard, when you take the airpanel out of the cradle it renders the desktop useless for others to use.

[neuroking]

I think that's an awesome setup. But, it would be nice if the airpanels were a little bigger/more selection. If I were to use one as my primary monitor, I would want >=18". Besides that, the pen tap and finger marks would drive me nuts.

Brandon

[digitaladvisor]

Originally posted by Cloud
And if you take the Airpanel out of the cradle does your movie still play on the Plasma display!? The way I have heard, when you take the airpanel out of the cradle it renders the desktop useless for others to use.

I believe it would.

Cannot see why not with a DUAL display Radeon for example with two VGA outputs for primary and secondardy displays correctly setup would not work.

If we were compare to a Citrix solution then yes the statement may be correct about a redundant desktop, but in the case of Hydravision designated to push a certain resulting decoding applications for HDTV or DVD decoding for the secondary display (ie Plasma) then this should work.

You see the way I understand the application of an Air Panel is to use it as a very sophisticated remote with the neat ability to peruse emails, internet and do office applications on it whist a secondary display ouput remains functioning.

I for one would not want to view a DVD movie on it as the Plasma in the lounge room is for that kind of stuff.

It is then not so much the limitation of the Air Panel, it is how one would apply appropiate software and the display technologies of the dual display approach to the Air Panel.

BTW: Radeon have fixed overlay interlaced timings bugs for 1080i HDTV displays.

This technology I believe is a great solution and will only progress to more inexpensive hardware rollout. Sometimes we need to get out of just just purest I.T. model to see the worth of these emerging technolgies.

Do you follow me and understand how the statement made in the article may not be completely true about a redundant desktop?

Regards

DA

[Cloud]

Try taking your airpanel out of the cradle and leave it on. Then try to use the desktop computer on its own, does it work independantly? I am curious.

This may be a good application for the office, but for home users it is way overpriced. I agree with the article, upgrading your Home XP to XP Pro is expensive and then buying an air panel with a 15" display is expensive.

A laptop will do good if you ask me.

[digitaladvisor]

Originally posted by Cloud
Try taking your airpanel out of the cradle and leave it on. Then try to use the desktop computer on its own, does it work independantly? I am curious.

This may be a good application for the office, but for home users it is way overpriced. I agree with the article, upgrading your Home XP to XP Pro is expensive and then buying an air panel with a 15" display is expensive.

A laptop will do good if you ask me.

The Air Panel comes with XP uprade with it. (Australia). Wait for it, the retail on this in Australia is $2,200 for the 10" model.

Yes I have tested this. DVD playback on Plasma whilst the Air Panel accesses the internet and email. It works! Condition: must have the lastest radeon drivers and a very fast rpocessor in the PC.

Other access - well your primary display is the air panel so no others cannot access the PC desktop. But if the HTPC was networked, this could be accessed by others for media files etc.

On the heels of this - I believe (i think it is Hitachi) are working on broadband protocol to stream HDTV from a single STB box to other suitable displays all throughout the home (including the DD sound!).

This is just one player (Viewsonic) and I do not consider this technology will be a passing fad.

But your correct about the cost, it has GOT TO come DOWN before home users will uptake the technology.

Remember the IBM PC in 1981 and how expensive it was and the specs it came out with.

Howabout PCI based motherboards when they first came out - now your flat out finding any with ISA bus connectors. I remember the cost of them with PCI slots when first introduced.

Remember USB when it first came out - you could not buy a thing half decent that worked with it.

We are living in world recession - true - but technologies comes in spurts and I firmly this is one of them, however in its infancy it will become prime center stage in a few years.

Regards

DA

[Ioman]

I personally feel that Air Panels will not make it because they are not being widely supported. There are a handful of manufacturers promoting them. Microsoft even was quoted saying that "these are for those wanting the bleeding edge". My theory is that the Air Panel will evolve into something more than what it currently is to a point that it will then make a good consumer product. The idea is OK, it just needs more polish and follow through.

[digitaladvisor]

Already their hints from Microsoft to uncripple these device types on redundant desktop.

My idea or ideal in my head is this and this is backed by quite a few reveiws on the Air Panel.

1. In Home Theatre/HTPC orientation the device is ideal
2. The remote use (universal) works out on par with high end theatre based controls anyway.
3. The device can automatically detect virtually every known remote control.
4. The issue of redundant desktop - that is as long the Air Panel is in use noone else has access to the computer is a non-issue with dedicated HTPC orientation.

Just waiting for prices on such devices to fall and to iron out a few more bugs in the devices.

Regards

DA

[alsherwood]

The Air Panel comes with XP uprade with it. (Australia). Wait for it, the retail on this in Australia is $2,200 for the 10" model.

Yes I have tested this. DVD playback on Plasma whilst the Air Panel accesses the internet and email. It works! Condition: must have the lastest radeon drivers and a very fast rpocessor in the PC.

Other access - well your primary display is the air panel so no others cannot access the PC desktop. But if the HTPC was networked, this could be accessed by others for media files etc.

On the heels of this - I believe (i think it is Hitachi) are working on broadband protocol to stream HDTV from a single STB box to other suitable displays all throughout the home (including the DD sound!).

This is just one player (Viewsonic) and I do not consider this technology will be a passing fad.

But your correct about the cost, it has GOT TO come DOWN before home users will uptake the technology.

Remember the IBM PC in 1981 and how expensive it was and the specs it came out with.

Howabout PCI based motherboards when they first came out - now your flat out finding any with ISA bus connectors. I remember the cost of them with PCI slots when first introduced.

Remember USB when it first came out - you could not buy a thing half decent that worked with it.

We are living in world recession - true - but technologies comes in spurts and I firmly this is one of them, however in its infancy it will become prime center stage in a few years.

Regards

DA

Hello DA, I have sent you a PM, but in case you don't get the message, could you provide details on how you achieved the dual display configurations using the ATI card. I have a similiar setup and would like to be able to have a DVD playing on the one output while the desktop is active on the other output. You seemed to imply that this was possible while the airpanel was undocked.

That is exactly what I would like to do.

Thanks,

Al