200A5 - 96/192K buttons

[kozz]

Does anyone knows the difference?
I tried it with Bose QuietComfort, and I can't tell the difference between 96 or 192.

is there a way to test it which 92 or 192 is currently on?

[ToddBradley]

What's the sampling rate of your source material? If it's less than 96kHz, then you're not going to hear a difference. This "Sonopur" upsampling thing is a scam devised by someone who doesn't understand even the basics of digital audio theory.

[kozz]

Originally posted by ToddBradley
This "Sonopur" upsampling thing is a scam devised by someone who doesn't understand even the basics of digital audio theory.

scam by who ? clarify pls

and I play DVD, so i have no idea what's the sample rate.

[Angus]

Todd is very disgruntled because he actually bought that $250 cable....I think. Or maybe that was someone else. Hehe, well whoever it was I'm just bustin' your balls.

Anyways, Todd's point is that the sound quality can't be any better, in theory, than the source material. An example would be something like a DVD being played on a HDTV. It's still DVD quality, which most people don't know isn't actually HD quality. However, I believe that Todd may be slightly incorrect in his assumption that it's all just smoke and mirrors insofar as there COULD be a way to boost the quality of lower quality source material much in the same way that many HDTVs have what's called "line doubling". I'm no audio expert by any means so I could be totally off base here, but the concept is that through some sort of digital trickery your audio is boosted in the same way a standard definition tv signal can be doubled to a better quality on an HD tv. So in some respects you WILL hear better quality if you're using the $250 cable and a 200A5 @192k than you would if you listened via the headphone jack and an RCA cable @92k.

Ultimately though, Todd has a very good point. None of this upsampling business can produce a signal that's as good as if your source material is in the higher frequency and quality to begin with. Again, if we look at HDTV then we'd see that even a line-doubled SD signal won't look as good as a native HD signal because it's being interpolated. It's all a question of resolutions, be it audio (in the case of the Sonopur stuff) or video (in the case of my example). But engineers in these fields are a pretty talented bunch so upsampling can be a good thing if it's done well.

So if you want the most out of your system you're going to need to do a lot more than just hit FN and F8 (or whatever F key it is) to change the rate. You're going to need the more costly cable, because standard RCA doesn't have the bandwith to support the higher rate to begin with, a high quality signal such as DVD audio (at least), software that supports reading the higher rate audio, and a good set of speakers obviously.

[Stratman]

If this upsampling thing wasn't a bill of goods from the marketing department, the user documentation - or the complete absence of it - sure makes it look like all smoke and mirrors. I have yet to get any confirmation that the SPDIF works at all. And if it works, whether it supports output AND input, what sort of latency it has, what drivers it supports (e.g. ASIO1,ASIO2, WDM, etc.) how many channels of I/0 it supports and so forth. The paucity of information about these capabilities would suggest that it is all just a bunch of hype. I challenge you to try to find anyone at VPR that knows ANYTHING about it. I think the designers/marketers are in hiding.

[ToddBradley]

Todd is very disgruntled because he actually bought that $250 cable

Well, I'm not sure that "disgruntled" is the right word. I knew the upsampling thing was a bunch of hooey long before I bought the cable. But yet I did buy that $250 cable, mainly because nobody I've seen has really figured out what it does and I wanted to conduct a thorough set of tests on it. Plus I had some disposable income to throw at another research project.

I just updated my webpage that serves as the gathering point of all the information I'm discovering about the vpr Matrix 200A5 digital audio capabilities. You'll find that here:

http://www.toddbradley.com/ahi_digital_audio.htm

Stratman wrote:
I have yet to get any confirmation that the SPDIF works at all.

Well, I've tried it with 3 different other devices and haven't gotten it to successfully work, either. But I do have a tech support case open with vpr Matrix, as you'll see from my webpage. And I need to point out that I'm testing it with professional audio gear, where the standard clock rates for digital audio are 44kHz and 48kHz. I don't have any consumer audiophile equipment (high end digital ready stereo amplifiers) which may be the target market for this feature.

Also, Angus, the one other thing you'd need to take advantage of this feature, in addition to the things you mentioned, is a high end receiver/amplifer that has digital input capabilities. You have to have something to convert the digital signal from the laptop into an analog signal to send to the speakers.

[Angus]

I'm anxiously awaiting the outcome of your tech support ticket on this issue Todd. Clearly you know more about this stuff than I do so ultimately I think your tests and eventual outcome (good or bad) will yield a ton of insight into the issues of digital audio on the VPRs. Oh and like I said, I wasn't really calling you disgruntled in the truest sense, I was just poking a friendly jab at ya. ;)

Oh and yeah, I neglected the fact that you will need a SPDIF enabled receiver/amp to connect your speakers and decode the signal. Silly oversight. Thanks for throwing it in there.

[ToddBradley]

Just in case you haven't already seen, my project to figure out the S/PDIF capabilities of the 200A5 is over. It doesn't work. See here:

http://www.toddbradley.com/ahi_digital_audio.htm#April1

[Angus]

No ****...it's all a sham. Wow, I didn't expect that at all. No offense of course, but I figured you just weren't doing something right and that the glorious tech support people would either A) never call you back leaving us in limbo, or B) you would figure out some error on your part. It's pretty shocking to even me that VPR/Best Buy would do something like this and it totally pisses me off. However, I don't see it as something that is totally unforeseen.

One thing I've learned in life as a consumer of anything remotely high tech is to never buy first generation stuff. With automobiles this is totally true because the first gens are always recalled and any bugs worked out. With computers I never update to the newest operating system (particularlly for business) which is why I'm running Windows 2000 Pro on all my systems including my 200A5. However, I think the awe that was inspired in me when I laid eyes on the 200A5 clouded my judgement a bit and I, like you and many others, bought into first gen gear.

I truly hope that VPR can step up and do something about these issues. They seem willing to offer truthful insight into problems if you prod them enough (e.g. they will own up to the ****ty wifi performance and send you a free card) which in my mind is a step in the right direction. Hopefully they will do the right thing, fix their screw up, and go on about making better products in the future. However, I worry that it won't come since they seem to be shifting focus onto their release of the new systems. Let's hope they don't "solve" our problems by suggesting we buy all new systems.

[FooFoo]

kozz, you need to install the dritek keyboard driver. after you install it, there will be on screen display tell you whether you are on 96 or 192 mode when press Fn+F7. it will let you know other status like wireless network enable/disable, spidf mode, screen brightness, volumn level and so on. i just accidently install that driver and find this osd out. i asked the vpr matrix support on this before on how can i know which spdif mode im on, they didnt tell me to install this stuff at all, not good. it should be installed from the factory, i dont know why i have to install it myself.

[kozz]

Originally posted by FooFoo
kozz, you need to install the dritek keyboard driver. after you install it, there will be on screen display tell you whether you are on 96 or 192 mode when press Fn+F7. it will let you know other status like wireless network enable/disable, spidf mode, screen brightness, volumn level and so on. i just accidently install that driver and find this osd out. i asked the vpr matrix support on this before on how can i know which spdif mode im on, they didnt tell me to install this stuff at all, not good. it should be installed from the factory, i dont know why i have to install it myself.

LOL, Kozz doesn't own 200A5 anymore.:D

say hi to my new DELL Inspiron 8500 (wider is indeed better) :P :P

Too risky for me owning VPR brand with BB support:D

[vprMatrix]

The 200A5 was designed to be an ultimate music and movie entertainment notebook. Through the design phase, we made choices that allowed us to deliver better audio and video than any notebook thus far has been able to deliver.

Specifically, the notebook has:

1. The first Windows-baed 15.2" 15:10 wide screen
2. The then-state-of-the-art nVidia GeForceGo graphics chipset
3. 6600 mAH of battery power to play through most DVDs
4. And of course, Sonopür - an original vpr Matrix design

Todate, there are few notebooks that can outperform the audio of the 200A5 because we know of noone who would build a notebook's audio this way:

Any and all digital music sources - MP3, CD, DVD audio - are upsampled through an Asynchronous Sample Rate Converter (ASRC) to bring the digital output to the input of Sonopür's Digital-to-Analog-Converter (DAC) to 24-bit, 192 kHz. The DAC is always running at 24/192.

This is vpr Matrix's IP, and patents are pending regarding its design and application.

If there is no new data from the source when it is only MP3 or CD, how can Sonopür make it sound better?

The Sonopür implementaion has 3 advantages:

1. Just like a video line-doubler, it fills in the space between the scans, and makes the picture more complete, albeit only with interpolated data. Real data is of course better but both SACD and DVD-Audio is much much less than 1% of all music available and the world needs a system that works with every digital audio format. So something is much better than nothing.

2. By going to 192 kHz, the analog audio bandpass in Sonopür increases from 22.1 kHz to 96 kHz, which allows the use of much more gentle digital filters in the final reconstruction of the analog waveform. The result is that subtle information such as room ambience or complex harmonics such as a harmon mute on a trumpet or any woodwind instrument, is much more faithfully recreated with the 24dB/octave digital brickwall filter.

3. By implementing extremely high accuracy de-jittering circuits in this combination, resolution and details at any level is much more clearly presented against a much darker "digital black" - a low, low noise floor (about -115dB, unwieghted)

We did design verification using an Audio Precision System Two Cascade Plus and verified that the jitter in the 200A5 is the lower any commercially available notebook, or CD player.

Part of the reason why the toggle switch is there in the Fn-F7is to allow the user to use an external DAC through exporting the SPDIF signal on either the AES/EBU XLR connector, or the SPDIF RCA connector. But please be aware that the digital output is at either 96 kHz or 192 kHz - it requires interface equipment such as distribution amps or DACs that can work at those frequencies - not at 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz.

The following is an addendum that we included with every 200A5 shipped. If you do not have the OSD software, please contact vpr Matrix support and ask for a current restore DVD to update your harddrive image.

The text:

This vpr Matrix notebook computer is specially built to bring the highest quality of music reproduction to its user. Its internal audio circuitry combines the latest in digital technology with world-class analog audio engineering. It is meticulously implemented with obsessive attention to detail yet lavished on a notebook computer. Its design and implementation is exclusively developed by vpr Matrix, Inc. and worldwide patents have been filed and are pending.

The result of all this technology brings a new level of performance that surpasses the performance of most highly specialized “audiophile” equipment, and is intended to serve as the center of your digital music playback system.

The music that it plays is effortlessly brilliant and engaging, dynamics are explosive yet richly layered with refinement and nuance, portrayals of space and depth of the recorded event that is palpable and detailed. Perhaps most importantly, all the cues in the music lead the listener to being in the middle of the performance itself.

We are so proud of its accomplishments that we encourage you to read further and discover what this vpr Matrix notebook computer has in store for you, and ask that you observe the following explanations and instructions carefully.

In addition to exceptional audio performance from internal sources, our circuitry is designed to be flexible as well. By using the optional vpr Matrix analog and digital attachment cables, this notebook computer can serve the following functions:

1. Playback of digital music from internal digital music sources such as MP3 files or a CD on the internal CD/DVD drive and the audio output is routed to the headphone jack on the front edge of the notebook computer, and its volume is controlled by the numbered volume control knob which is also located on the front edge.

This is the normal mode of operating the notebook computer and does not require the optional digital attachment cable.



2. Playback of digital music from internal digital music sources such as MP3 files or a CD on the internal CD/DVD drive but the output is routed to one of the digital output connectors through the use of the digital attachment cable.

This allows the enhanced digital signal of the internal music source to be played on complementary external equipment that is equipped with a Digital-to-Analog Converter. The notebook computer user can select both the output digital format, with AES/EBU being served by a male XLR connector or SPDIF through a mail RCA connecter, as well as the sampling frequency of the output, which can either be 96 kHz or 192 kHz, both at 24-bit resolution.

The digital signal selected will be simultaneously available at both the AES/EBU and SPDIF output connectors, and the output sampling frequency can be toggled between 96 kHz and 192 kHz by first pressing and holding the Fn key, then the F7 key on the keyboard.

3. Playback of digital music from an external sources such as a CD or DVD player which has either an AES/EBU output through a female XLR connector or an SPDIF output through a female RCA connector.

This allows external digital music sources to be enhanced through the audio circuitry in the notebook computer and output either as:

a. An analog audio signal available at the headphone jack of the notebook computer which can then be connected to either headphones, speakers or an external audio system, or

b. An enhanced digital audio signal available at both the AES/EBU and SPDIF output connectors, and the output sampling frequency can be toggled between 96 kHz and 192 kHz by first pressing and holding the Fn key, then the F7 key on the keyboard.

Again, first power off the external CD or DVD player and the external audio system, connect the appropriate analog and digital attachment cables, and enjoy the music!


I hope I helped to explain (and debunked the myth around)Sonopür. If you doubt its capabilities, please A/B a good CD on a 200A5 and any other notebook, and be honest with what you hear.

Good luck!

vpr Matrix

[Goldeneared]

Thank you for the reply as I feel others were unaware or misinformed to the actual abilities and benefits to up sampling. While I understand and appreciate the time you spent with this information, it means absolutely nothing if there is a flaw in the design of this notebook that renders the optional digital cable useless. You can talk all you want about the merits of this pristine audio but if the owner can't extract through a digital means, we are limited to the headphone out jack. In doing so, we are restricting the quality of the audio to the built in analog amplifier. Definitely not an ideal situation but still perhaps better than the standard. What I would much more like to hear from a VPR person is when and if there is ever going to be an actually fix for the advertised and promoted features that originally prompted my purchased of this unit. If you are affiliated with VPR, you could post updates here concerning the progress of this remedy instead of the lack of information VPR (Best Buy) is currently offering. Then maybe we as consumers of a product, which was falsely presented to have special features, can feel we were not forgotten and taken advantage of.

[vprMatrix]

Originally posted by Goldeneared
[You can talk all you want about the merits of this pristine audio but if the owner can't extract through a digital means, we are limited to the headphone out jack. In doing so, we are restricting the quality of the audio to the built in analog amplifier. Definitely not an ideal situation but still perhaps better than the standard.

In fact, the implementation of the 200A5 Sonopür audio board is not only a first but very close to the state-of-the-art, both in the digital and analog domains.

The audio amplifiers used are Analog Devices OPA627A's, and are revered in the audiophile community as one of the very best, so I would think that the lowly headphone jack has finally got a new lease on life.

The digital domain has extremely low jitter based on very sound digital clocking recovery designs, using extremely high precision oscillators in critical positions. No PCs we know of, and even pro audio sound boards, use this level of precision.

These techniques are responsible for the pristine sound quality out of the system, and side-by-side comparisons should convince even the most skeptical.

As for the digital output, it is intended for use by those who have 96kHz or 192kHz DDC or DACs, using the 200A5 as an outboard SRC for MP3s. This is an obscure application to some, but very useful for one part of the target customer for the 200A5 - pro audio users.

Hope this helps.

[nedlyj]

Originally posted by vprMatrix
As for the digital output, it is intended for use by those who have 96kHz or 192kHz DDC or DACs, using the 200A5 as an outboard SRC for MP3s. This is an obscure application to some, but very useful for one part of the target customer for the 200A5 - pro audio users.

Hope this helps.

That's nice, but you did not address the question posed by Goldeneared. The digital output specs and claims are meaningless because the digital output connecter and cable do NOT work. There is no digital signal coming out of the connector, and everyone who ever bought the digital cable returned it.

So unless there is some new information to address if/when that would ever be rectified by VPR, all the engineering savvy in the world isn't going to turn the 200A5 into a digital music player.

-n

[Goldeneared]

vprMatrix said;
" The audio amplifiers used are Analog Devices OPA627A's, and are revered in the audiophile community as one of the very best, so I would think that the lowly headphone jack has finally got a new lease on life. "

While I appreciate this capability and enjoy the sound quality through audiophile headphones, any and most audiophile people already have outboard DAC units that will exceed these AD OpAmps. Not to mention the lovely two channel imaging achieved by quality, high end speakers. Headphones are fine for portable use but I don't appreciate the "in the middle of my head" sound.

vprMatrix then goes on to say;
As for the digital output, it is intended for use by those who have 96kHz or 192kHz DDC or DACs, using the 200A5 as an outboard SRC for MP3s. This is an obscure application to some, but very useful for one part of the target customer for the 200A5 - pro audio users.

I would have to disagree with this statement. Any audiophile is going to try and capitalize on up sampling and not through the use of MP3s. You wouldn't use MP3s for space saving reasons only to have sound degradation due to compression. While I have done this, it's still not ideal. I have experienced better sound through CD playback by up sampling the 44.1 sampling rate to 96khz. And, I am by no means a pro audio user.

All this is fine but as nedlyj points out, we still don't have a capability we were promised and that I fully intend to use. With all the interest in the digital audio cable I manipulated to actually achieve at least coaxial digital output, I feel I am not alone. If in fact you are not able to update us to this fix, surely VPR could have someone who is post some updates or just tell us that the VPR engineers are incapable of delivering the promises clearly advertised on their web site and in Best Buy stores. This has drug on to the point of ridiculous.

[ToddBradley]

Holy cow! This is great! I haven't visited this board in quite a while, but it's awesome to see some real information about the "Sonopur" feature from someone who sounds like he knows what he's talking about.

Let me address a few points. vprMatrix wrote:


1. The first Windows-baed 15.2" 15:10 wide screen
2. The then-state-of-the-art nVidia GeForceGo graphics chipset
3. 6600 mAH of battery power to play through most DVDs
4. And of course, Sonopür - an original vpr Matrix design


I'll grant you the first 3 of those have been a success. #4 sounds great but fell a bit short, in my opinion.

Apparently I didn't get the addendum you said was shipped with every notebook, because your post of 7/14/2003 was the first time I read anything saying the digital audio output was limited to 24 bits at either 96k or 192k. Why didn't anyone think to offer the more industry standard S/PDIF rate of 16 bits at 44k? The El Cheapo sound card in my desktop even does that, so I'd expect it from a system touted as being specifically designed for audio. These far out sampling rates (192k) may be state of the art for audiophile gear, but most gear in use in the pro audio world is still 44k (or 48k in some cases).

Second, if the audio subsystem is as great as you say, why isn't it used (or at least advertised) on the 220A5? I noticed the ad for that new model specifically doesn't list Sonopur.

Finally, there's the big show stopper. All the internal hocus pocus with the digital audio stream doesn't do a damn thing if you can't get the digital audio signal out of the machine. Supposedly, the only way to do that was with the $250 digital audio parallel port cable, which doesn't work. I don't think anyone cares if the headphone jack sounds better than headphone jacks on other laptops (mine died within 2 months of use, so I may be bitter). Nobody is going to connect their laptop to a high end stereo or pro audio gear by way of a 1/8" stereo plug. If you've got a great digital signal, I want it in a digital format, and the one cable that's supposed to do that doesn't do that.

With just a little more follow-through the 200A5 could've been a great notebook for musicians and audiophiles. Offer a variety of bit depths and sampling rates and provide some way for a digital signal to get outside the box. Then you've got a best-of-breed machine.

[ToddBradley]

And then there was a bone chilling silence...

I was really hoping vprMatrix (the user, not necessarily the company) would reply to this. We seem to have scared him/her off, I guess.

[Goldeneared]

Yes indeed, seems he /she was more marketer than engineer/designer. Just when I thought perhaps there was someone to actually take interest in the service of their customers. What was I thinking? :(