Talk Back: Whats the deal with MiniDiscs

[dang]

Checkout our latest Talk Back: Whats the deal with MiniDiscs (http://news.designtechnica.com/talkback20.html)

[questionlp]

I'm a fan and owner of several MiniDisc players and recorders (a component one for the hifi and several portables: MZ-R30, MZ-R90 and MZ-R909) and I just love it. Although I don't use it as much as I used to, I still love the fact that the portable player/recorders are so damned small and that you can cram in a fair amount of music while retaining very good quality (even though the R909 is capable of MDLP, I still record at SP).

There is no way in heck I'm going to drive through the potted streets of Portland and it's burb with a portable MP3 jukebox... I don't want to chance a head crash into the player's hard drive. I've shaken the R90 and R909 during playback and it didn't skip nor make and sickening sounds that would usually mean something is really getting screwed in it.

Also, the battery life of a portable player and recorder is just plain awesome. On one built-in Ni-MH battery and a standard AA, I was able to go from Portland down to K-Falls and back without having to replace either of the batteries.

The lack of uploading with the NetMDs is really stupid, but I don't do it enough to really worry or care much. Where it can be a hassle is for a concert goer trying to upload the taped songs onto a laptop or a computer quickly. I also haven't ran into a problem with SCMS copy protection when recording digitally recorded MDs back to my PC using a Sound Blast Audigy.

I'm happy with not having a NetMD and don't mind recording MD's at real time since it gives me a chance to listen to the music (from CD not MP3) and not futz around with playlists or adding gaps between tracks.

[Archon]

you jerk! u used my 2am, eyes with allergies, self photo!

[Archon]

I dont actually like OpenMG that much, I use a seperate program in conjunction with Nero. hit 1 button, it makes a nero cd image, and then burns that to the MD, its very nice.

not to mention that it has errors, I meant to fix them, but never got around to doing it. I think u should take it down!

LP3? wtf is that? ;)

[questionlp]

LP3 should be LP4 as Archon stated :)

[neuroking]

Minidiscs..... psha.... whatever. I see no point in them at all anymore. Sure when CD burners were $1000 and discs $20. But, not now when the average MP3 playing CD player has 2 minutes of skip protection and an 8 hour real world battery life. Hell, I just got my gf one for $60, and it does everything my $200 Rio Volt did when I bought it the first week it was out. So let's go through those advantages again...

(CD/MP3 = CD based MP3 player, MP3 ss = solid stage MP3 player, jukebox = hd based MP3 player)

Skip protection:
Minidisc: yes
CD/MP3: yes
MP3 ss: yes
MP3 jukebox: yes

Can jog with:
Minidisc: no
CD/MP3: no
MP3 ss: yes
MP3 jukebox: no (if you want it to last)

Removable media:
Minidisc: yes
CD/MP3: yes
MP3 ss: yes, but expensive
MP3 jukebox: no

Upload/download music to device/media:
Minidisc: yes/no
CD/MP3: yes/yes
MP3 ss: yes/yes
MP3 jukebox: yes/yes

Requires special software not installed standard by most OSes:
Minidisc:yes
CD/MP3: no
MP3 ss: no
MP3 jukebox: no

Size:
Minidisc: small
CD/MP3: medium
MP3 ss: tiny
MP3 jukebox: small/medium

Capacity:
Minidisc: 1 album
CD/MP3: 20 albums
MP3 ss: 1-2 albums
MP3 jukebox: ~100-500 albums


So, minidiscs are portable, but need to be 'ported' with their media. They can still skip if being constantly jiggled. They hold only a single album, and are no smaller than most other mp3 devices. They require special software and cannot download music back to the computer. With a $50 MP3 player you can get all the convienence of a minidisc, minus skipping. With a $50 CD/MP3 player, you get 20 times the space with similar skip problems, plus the ability to burn CDs easily on any computer.

At this point, minidisc are only popular with people who have had them before, since all the other options just make more sense. If you're only listenign an album at a time, get an MP3 ss player. If you want alot more, but don't need the skip protection, get an MP3CD player. If you want to carry all your music with you all the time, get an MP3 HD player.

Comments?
Brandon

[Archon]

Originally posted by neuroking
Minidiscs..... psha.... whatever. I see no point in them at all anymore. Sure when CD burners were $1000 and discs $20. But, not now when the average MP3 playing CD player has 2 minutes of skip protection and an 8 hour real world battery life. Hell, I just got my gf one for $60, and it does everything my $200 Rio Volt did when I bought it the first week it was out. So let's go through those advantages again...

(CD/MP3 = CD based MP3 player, MP3 ss = solid stage MP3 player, jukebox = hd based MP3 player)

Skip protection:
Minidisc: yes
CD/MP3: yes
MP3 ss: yes
MP3 jukebox: yes

Can jog with:
Minidisc: no
CD/MP3: no
MP3 ss: yes
MP3 jukebox: no (if you want it to last)

Removable media:
Minidisc: yes
CD/MP3: yes
MP3 ss: yes, but expensive
MP3 jukebox: no

Upload/download music to device/media:
Minidisc: yes/no
CD/MP3: yes/yes
MP3 ss: yes/yes
MP3 jukebox: yes/yes

Requires special software not installed standard by most OSes:
Minidisc:yes
CD/MP3: no
MP3 ss: no
MP3 jukebox: no

Size:
Minidisc: small
CD/MP3: medium
MP3 ss: tiny
MP3 jukebox: small/medium

Capacity:
Minidisc: 1 album
CD/MP3: 20 albums
MP3 ss: 1-2 albums
MP3 jukebox: ~100-500 albums


So, minidiscs are portable, but need to be 'ported' with their media. They can still skip if being constantly jiggled. They hold only a single album, and are no smaller than most other mp3 devices. They require special software and cannot download music back to the computer. With a $50 MP3 player you can get all the convienence of a minidisc, minus skipping. With a $50 CD/MP3 player, you get 20 times the space with similar skip problems, plus the ability to burn CDs easily on any computer.

At this point, minidisc are only popular with people who have had them before, since all the other options just make more sense. If you're only listenign an album at a time, get an MP3 ss player. If you want alot more, but don't need the skip protection, get an MP3CD player. If you want to carry all your music with you all the time, get an MP3 HD player.

Comments?
Brandon

okay, lets see

"Can jog with:
Minidisc: no"

I can jog with my minidisc

"Upload/download music to device/media:
Minidisc: yes/no"

I can, but its in real time, sadly :(

"Requires special software not installed standard by most OSes:
Minidisc:yes"

True, but CDRW also requires special drive and software also.

"MP3 jukebox: small/medium"

who are you kidding

"Capacity:
Minidisc: 1 album"

wrong, I have 3 CDs on my MD

"CD/MP3: 20 albums

assuming you have a CD-MP3 playing device

"They can still skip if being constantly jiggled"

You constantly "jiggle" your portable devices for over 40 seconds at a time?

"They hold only a single album, and are no smaller than most other mp3 devices"

they hold more than 1 album, and yes, they are about the same size as most media mp3 players.

"They require special software"

I have Nero and SimpleBurner, 1 click and its done.

"cannot download music back to the computer"

correct

" With a $50 MP3 player you can get all the convienence of a minidisc, minus skipping. With a $50 CD/MP3 player, you get 20 times the space with similar skip problems, plus the ability to burn CDs easily on any computer."

$50 MP3 player which can hold 4 songs and then a $200 memory card which has to be connected to a PC to add more songs. And then extra $ if you want more than 1 stick with you at a time, for more music

$50 CD/MP3 player, CDs are big, and despite being "portable" I dont really find them as such. And once again, burning CDs, likely only once, so then you have to have multiple CDs, since they arent rewritable (Im guessing). (and once again, only on the PC).

I personally find this whole "media revolves around the PC" thing silly. I use minidiscs for more than just the mp3s I download ;)

[neuroking]

"Can jog with:
Minidisc: no"
I can jog with my minidisc

You really jog with a Minidisc player? I mean, I CAN jog with a CD player with shock protection, but every 30 seconds or so they skip uncontrollably for 20 seconds, including Sony ones with "G-Protection", which is what MDs use.

"Upload/download music to device/media:
Minidisc: yes/no"
I can, but its in real time, sadly :(

Yes, I know MDs have the audio in, but I meant direct data transfer/compression. No one likes 60 cycle hum.

"Requires special software not installed standard by most OSes:
Minidisc:yes"
True, but CDRW also requires special drive and software also.

Nothing that isn't supplieed with any semi recent OS or recently purchased computer. i never had to install drivers on my 3 year old dell. Since MDs are not 'standard' hardware, special software is needed, or special configurations to preexisting software. M same goes for most jukeboxes, since they act as external drives, or are supported directly from WMP, iTunes, etc.

"MP3 jukebox: small/medium"
who are you kidding

Seeing as that the Nomad Jukebox fits in a normal CD player sleeve, and the iPod is about 1/2-3/4 that size, giving it a larger rating would hippocritical.

"Capacity:
Minidisc: 1 album"
wrong, I have 3 CDs on my MD

Do all MDs support LP4? LP2 mode stores 2 hrs according to the Sony site. Still 1 or 3 albums only matteres when comparing to the portable MP3 ss players. Even then, Sony's latest Net Walkman has 256MB internal and a duo slot. So there really isn't a storageadvantage either way.

"CD/MP3: 20 albums
assuming you have a CD-MP3 playing device

That was the assumption all allong. I'm not talking regular old CD audio only players.

"They can still skip if being constantly jiggled"
You constantly "jiggle" your portable devices for over 40 seconds at a time?

As in jogging. To test, hold the device and twist the wrist back and forth continuously. Make not at what point it stops playing continuously. You may not want to do this with a HD based mp3 player, but I bash my latops around a good deal (running and asleep), and never had a bad sector. In fact, I've had to return more desktop HDs than latop (3 vs 0).

"They require special software"
I have Nero and SimpleBurner, 1 click and its done.

Cool. Didn't realize they had made them pnp like external cd burners. i was thinking Sonic Stage (which I hate... but that's just opinion)

" With a $50 MP3 player you can get all the convienence of a minidisc, minus skipping. With a $50 CD/MP3 player, you get 20 times the space with similar skip problems, plus the ability to burn CDs easily on any computer."

$50 MP3 player which can hold 4 songs and then a $200 memory card which has to be connected to a PC to add more songs. And then extra $ if you want more than 1 stick with you at a time, for more music

$200 memory card? The most expensive media is still the MS, which you can get 128MB for $35. $200 for a 1GB flash card, yeah. Point is, if you need total non-skip protection, you generally aren't using it in an environment you'll be in for long. If you want more music with adequate skip protection for walking and low impact activities, might as well go with a CD MP3 player.

$50 CD/MP3 player, CDs are big, and despite being "portable" I dont really find them as such. And once again, burning CDs, likely only once, so then you have to have multiple CDs, since they arent rewritable (Im guessing). (and once again, only on the PC).

All the CD MP3 players I've seen support CDRW discs. Yeah, CD MP3s aren't portable is this respect, but you have to keep MD media with you anyways if you want that much more music. 20 albums still requires 7 MDs, but only 1 CD.

I personally find this whole "media revolves around the PC" thing silly. I use minidiscs for more than just the mp3s I download ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

Um, I have 35 GB and 6,000 songs sitting in one place, well categorized all the time. i find that pretty damn convienent. No swapping discs, I can play any song anywhere (bedroom, stereo, computer), upload it to any device or burn a cd with any combination. I never have to swap a single disc or search through stack of CDs. And yes, the greater majority of my MP3s I ripped myself from my CDs, which are sitting in Case Logic albums that have remained untouched for about 2 years (unless a new disc was being stored away). Also, I can give one of my MP3 CDs to a friend to sample a bands entire catelogue, or an entire genre of music. They don't need any special equipment, except a computer, and who really doesn't have a computer, or at least access to one? If I want to do high impact stuff, I can swap out play lists on my MP3 ss player with 1-2 clicks.

CD MP3 player: $50 MP3 player MP3 ss player: $120 128MB additional memory: #35 CDs: free Total: $205
Minidisc player: $130+discs.
Price advantage for the MD player, but I think the other option still wins on convienence.

My $.02
Brandon

[questionlp]

Yes, I know MDs have the audio in, but I meant direct data transfer/compression. No one likes 60 cycle hum.
What 60Hz hum?

CD -> MD is done digitally for me.
MD -> PC is also done digitally for me. I have a component MD player with digital (optical or coax) out and I connect it to my Audigy external drive unit's optical in and record to WAV and compress it with either FLAC or Shorten (if I want to keep the quality) or 192Kbps Ogg Vorbis, or even 192-256kbps MP3 ABR via LAME.

MD -> MD via analog, no 60Hz hum either.

I think MD would have been a perfect replacement for cassette. It was *NEVER* meant as a replacement for CD and a psuedo-competitor to MP3 devices.

MD's have their place, not only for those who already have MD players and recorders, but actual mixers and DJ's at dance houses (I know several people who swear by MDs for recording live mixes and what not, a lot more portable than DATs or portable CD recorders), multitracker recorders, transcribers and live concert taping. Again, I want to see a really portable MP3 player/recorder that, for the size of the original iPod can record at near CD-quality for 3-4 hours (even longer for some bands) straight, and can handle the jostles of being in the standing-room-only section of the floor.

I'm also happy with my Nomad Jukebox 6GB and 3 (20GB), but that still requires additional drivers and software (be it Creative's f-ing buggy-ass software or Red Chair's Notmad software).

[neuroking]

What 60Hz hum?

I meant 60 cycle hum. You get it when you try to use analog outs to analog ins. Usually not that bad, but never desirable.

CD -> MD is done digitally for me.
MD -> PC is also done digitally for me. I have a component MD player with digital (optical or coax) out and I connect it to my Audigy external drive unit's optical in and record to WAV and compress it with either FLAC or Shorten (if I want to keep the quality) or 192Kbps Ogg Vorbis, or even 192-256kbps MP3 ABR via LAME.

What I meant was transfering music in file form. The point was you can upload to an MD easily, converting it to ATRAC, but downloading is not allowed, so you have to re-record the music, and then encode it, like you mentioned above. once on a computer, you can convert any audio to any format, so that's not really an MD advantage.

MD -> MD via analog, no 60Hz hum either.

The sound will be coninually degraded with each re-record over analog. That's the nature of the beast.

I think MD would have been a perfect replacement for cassette. It was *NEVER* meant as a replacement for CD and a psuedo-competitor to MP3 devices.

MD's have their place, not only for those who already have MD players and recorders, but actual mixers and DJ's at dance houses (I know several people who swear by MDs for recording live mixes and what not, a lot more portable than DATs or portable CD recorders), multitracker recorders, transcribers and live concert taping. Again, I want to see a really portable MP3 player/recorder that, for the size of the original iPod can record at near CD-quality for 3-4 hours (even longer for some bands) straight, and can handle the jostles of being in the standing-room-only section of the floor.

I agree totally with the competition remarks. But I think that niche market has been scooped up. People were annoyed that they couldn't record with CDs. viola! MP3s. Then they got annoyed with the skipping of CDs. Viola! MP3 ss player. Then the cost and capacity. Enter CD MP3 players. At any point, MDs had a clear advantage, but they never moved on it.

As for DJing, most DJs I know (about 6 or so) use CDs. As for the capacity issues, what about a Nomad Jukebox Zen with a 60GB drive? Don't MDs only have a 120 MB capacity? And why record a concert. It's like taking an camcorder to a movie. I would assume the setup would allow for t-ing off the audio out to a more suitable source.

I'm also happy with my Nomad Jukebox 6GB and 3 (20GB), but that still requires additional drivers and software (be it Creative's f-ing buggy-ass software or Red Chair's Notmad software).

WMP, Music match, and Real One all support it, last I saw. And can't you just mount it like an external drive, too? Any bumdled software usually sucks. Look at the Nike Rio software for a prime example. But external drive driveers are usually standard, as are CDRW drives. I guess MD drivers are included with some burnind software now, too. So no big advantage there on any side.

Brandon

[Archon]

Originally posted by neuroking
Don't MDs only have a 120 MB capacity?Brandon [/B]

music MD and data MD are different. Just know they can hold 160 minutes of MP3 quality.

(they arent different, but you know what I mean)

[questionlp]

I like live recordings of concerts mostly when it comes to bands that are more natural live than on CD. Dave Matthews Band, (for some) Phish, Guster, John Butler Trio, etc. Live concert recordings are usually the only time you will ever here a band start ad-libbing to songs or do awesome covers of other songs.

Sure, it's not as clean as some live recording albums done by Dave Matthews Band or Pearl Jam, but it's better than trying to imagine yourself back at the concert... I personally download a fair amount of live stuff off of http://archive.org/audio/. I personally don't give a crap about taped movies at the theater, mostly a lot of the stuff seems to be compressed and poorly recorded (so I've heard... I've never tried em)... but a fair number of concert tapers do a fairly nice job or get nice recording spots and will get very nice recordings. I have several full concert recordings that are like that...

Another way I look at it, the more I get to listen to bands that allow live recordings, the more likely that I will actually go and listen to them live or maybe even buy their albums. It's an alternative to listening to Clear Channel's 20 song playlist that repeats every 3 or so hours.

That's me... if you're not into that kind of stuff, that's fine by me.

[benjust]

abcde

[Archon]

Originally posted by benjust
i bought a minidisc player, then i bought something better - the iriver slimx 400

pro minidisc:
* small
* ability to record out and about (never used this once though)

Okay ;)

Originally posted by benjust
con minidisc:

* proprietary atrac3 encoding

did you know MP3 is proprietary?

Originally posted by benjust

* proprietary interface forcing most users to use openmg - a bloated, unstable piece of software with copying restrictions, and a imho-all-too-complex gui.

I dont use OpenMG, check m3u2sb out.

Originally posted by benjust
* minidisc are expensive (not compared to flash, but compared to the price of a blank cd).

$2 is expensive?

Originally posted by benjust

* most peoples computer music collections are mp3s, forcing them to re-compress to atrac3.

true, but most of my music collection isnt MP3 ;)

Originally posted by benjust
* players are very expensive.

I'll give you that, mine was $280

Originally posted by benjust
* shorter battery life

I get 40 hours on my gumstick, 60 with a AA battery attachment.

Originally posted by benjust
* * can't fit much on the 180mb discs

I keep telling you people, they're not in MB. Its 80 minute, then 160 minute. (depending on the compression)

Originally posted by benjust
* slow usb 1.1 interface

Actually, its the converting between MP3 > Atrac which takes the long time. NetMD doesnt even use up USB 1.1. This doesnt matter to me, since I can just take a CD, hit a button and have it on MD.

[neuroking]

did you know MP3 is proprietary?

No it's not. No one licenses it and it is based on open standards. MP4 is, though.

I dont use OpenMG, check m3u2sb out.

See? Cds are teh way to go. EZCD or all those letters you have to remember? eh? hehee

$2 is expensive?

Complared to free, yes. :)

true, but most of my music collection isnt MP3 ;)

Yer weird. I find I get teh best compression when I reverse RSA encrypt the wav and write it on the back of a snail. I thought everyone did that.

I get 40 hours on my gumstick, 60 with a AA battery attachment.

Anything over 6 hours is unnecessary. if you listen to over 6 hours/day and don't have time to charge it at night, you need to do more.

I keep telling you people, they're not in MB. Its 80 minute, then 160 minute. (depending on the compression)

So how many minutes is a megabyte then... hehehe. Putting it like that, CDs have around 600 minutes.

Actually, its the converting between MP3 > Atrac which takes the long time. NetMD doesnt even use up USB 1.1. This doesnt matter to me, since I can just take a CD, hit a button and have it on MD.

THe snail method works faster. And CDs are even easier. No buttons. Just unwrap the plastic wrap. Voila! Pop it in the CD player. :)

Face it minidiscs have been....
http://l337images.com/images/picture80.jpg

[Ioman]

If you ask me, CD's are still the most cost effective method for listening to burned media.

Look at it this way:

Spindle of 100 blank 80-min CD'rs: $50 (tops) (thats .50 per CD, a lot cheaper than $2 for a minidisc)

MP3's....free

But if you even wanted to go further, you would pay $.79 per song off Real Networks Rhapsody and burn 10-15 songs to CD that way. This of course would be the LEGAL way to get music without using share networks. :D

[Ioman]

Originally posted by benjust
i bought a minidisc player, then i bought something better - the iriver slimx 400

pro minidisc:
* small
* ability to record out and about (never used this once though)

con minidisc:
* proprietary atrac3 encoding
* proprietary interface forcing most users to use openmg - a bloated, unstable piece of software with copying restrictions, and a imho-all-too-complex gui.
* minidisc are expensive (not compared to flash, but compared to the price of a blank cd).
* most peoples computer music collections are mp3s, forcing them to re-compress to atrac3.
* players are very expensive.
* shorter battery life
* can't fit much on the 180mb discs
* slow usb 1.1 interface

pro slimx:
* mp3, wma, firmware upgradable for new formats
* dump mp3s onto disc any-which-way-you-can, the slimx will play them
* incredibly in-depth
* cheap!!! media
* plays cds as well
* longer battery life
* cheap player
* no re-compression
* use on any system
* 700/800/900mb cds available..

con slimx:
* slightly larger than an MD player
* external battery pack if you don't wanna use the internal slim rechargables.

The SlimX 400 which we just reviewed here: http://reviews.designtechnica.com/review66.html

Is simply amazing and a great cost effective way to listen to both MP3's and CD audio. The sound is great, it supports ID3 tags and albums and is very reasonable in price. Remember most people burn MP3's to CD, not rip them from CD and this is where the SlimX400 comes in real handy.

[Changlinn]

Alrighty... Let me just say mini-disc has moving parts and will logically wear out faster, also this motor spinning the discs will drain batteries faster too.
I have had a mini-disc then due to its size limitations I got a mp3-cd player, these suck because of there ease of skipping, I entered audio heaven with a compact flash based mp3 player, 1 aa battery lasts around 13hours, it has a usb cable and can be used as a usb drive, it is easy to upgrade and now supports wma, ogg, mp3(including vbr, up to 512kbps). It has no moving parts and cost less than my mini disc, also the transfer speeds are very fast.
I got it for a mere AUS$150 (thats about $80 american) and I got the 512mb card for AUS$200 (about US$110), thats $290 for a player and recorder that can auto record, one 32mb card gives 6hours of recording and really good quality, but my current setup with the 512 card never ever skips, runs for ages, is sturdy, caries all my favourites at the time, and can also be used to carry my pictures and webpages for backup.
MD is Dead long live versatile players like my Riva.

[Archon]

See? Cds are teh way to go. EZCD or all those letters you have to remember? eh? hehee

huh?


$2 is expensive?

Complared to free, yes. :)

CDs are free, since when?


true, but most of my music collection isnt MP3 ;)

Yer weird. I find I get teh best compression when I reverse RSA encrypt the wav and write it on the back of a snail. I thought everyone did that.

I find most of my music collection is on music CDs. Not all of us only have an MP3 music collection.


I get 40 hours on my gumstick, 60 with a AA battery attachment.

Anything over 6 hours is unnecessary. if you listen to over 6 hours/day and don't have time to charge it at night, you need to do more.

No, I find extended battery life is the main reason for having a Portable music device.


I keep telling you people, they're not in MB. Its 80 minute, then 160 minute. (depending on the compression)

So how many minutes is a megabyte then... hehehe. Putting it like that, CDs have around 600 minutes.

huh?


Actually, its the converting between MP3 > Atrac which takes the long time. NetMD doesnt even use up USB 1.1. This doesnt matter to me, since I can just take a CD, hit a button and have it on MD.

THe snail method works faster. And CDs are even easier. No buttons. Just unwrap the plastic wrap. Voila! Pop it in the CD player. :)

yeah, that has nothing to do with anything.

*edit-

I really think people who buy MP3 players are just silly. You have this brick which needs to be connected to a PC to add additional music. Not only that, but you need to buy flash cards for this additional music (which you must tote around if you want different songs). Battery life could also be much better (MD is the top, I believe).

If you wish to live in that MP3-centric world, look at it this way. MD players are small, long battery life, portable MP3 devices. Rather than flash media, they use MDs. Additional benifits include the ability to edit, change, split, rename and add songs away and indepdenent from ur PC.


Face it minidiscs have been....
http://l337images.com/images/picture80.jpg [/B]

and to you I say

[neuroking]

huh?

I was joking about acronums. EZCD-Roxio Easy CD Creator (yes, crap software to install, but once it works, it works.) Nevermind.

CDs are free, since when?

I haven't paid $.01 for CDRs. I get about 100 at a time whenever there's a "$20 spindle of 50 with $20 mail in rebate". Hence, free. Well, plus tax.

Right now there's a 100 CD spindle for $10
http://www.bestbuy.com/Detail.asp?m=1581&cat=1588&scat=&e=11098961

I find most of my music collection is on music CDs. Not all of us only have an MP3 music collection.

Yeah, but the point is, you don't really have a Minidisc collection. Or at least 99% of the population doesn't. You have the original media which must be muched with.

No, I find extended battery life is the main reason for having a Portable music device.

No, adequate battery life is all you need. Ppl hated when CD players last 3 hours on AAs. Now no one cares unless it's <8 hours. Since the device isn't used continuously, in most cases, a one charge a day device is just as good, if not better than a charge every 1.5 day device. If only for the sake of forming charginf habits, reducing the "crap, I forgot to charge it" times.

huh?

4 min/song x130 songs=520 minutes

yeah, that has nothing to do with anything.

See above about orginal media state.

I really think people who buy MP3 players are just silly.

LOL, yes. That's why there are what? 3 portable minidisc players on the market? And what? 30 or so MP3 players on the market. Too many silly ppl.

You have this brick which needs to be connected to a PC to add additional music.

This is about HD based MP3 players? THen yes. It's also and external drive, and holds roughly a couple thousand times that of a minidisc. And it's still pocket sized. you make it sound like everyone carries around microwave oven sized boxes and you have a dime sized terabyte mega media studio that runs on lint.

Not only that, but you need to buy flash cards for this additional music (which you must tote around if you want different songs).

And this is on portable, solid state MP3 players? And tote? Oh really. They weigh less than a stick of gum. And you don't ahve to 'tote' around MDs? But there's only 3 albums on there. It's rather tote a stick of gum around with 20 or so albums each than a MD with 3. You seem to always make the point that MDs allow you to choose your music, but in order to access any album, you have to know what you want before you leave the house. you could a) grab a stack of MDs, about 5 times the size of the player (with cases), or click four times on the computer and add no bulk, take 2 minutes. Want portable, beat this:
http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iFP-395T.asp
512MB, 24hr battery life, recording, 35 GRAMS

Battery life could also be much better (MD is the top, I believe).

The 58 hours for MD, 15-20 for MP3SS, 23 for the SlimX 400. Yes, MD is top.

If you wish to live in that MP3-centric world, look at it this way. MD players are small, long battery life, portable MP3 devices. Rather than flash media, they use MDs. Additional benifits include the ability to edit, change, split, rename and add songs away and indepdenent from ur PC.

Yes, but with moving parts, lower capacity, less choice in hardware, and adopted by far fewer ppl and companies.

and to you I say

right back at ya!
http://l337images.com/images/picture52.jpg


Brandon
ps: we're allowed to swear, right?

[Archon]

Originally posted by neuroking
huh?
ps: we're allowed to swear, right?

I hope we are.

And Im not gonna post anymore, since you just keep saying the same things ;)

and ur text is just lookin like a black blurr right now so Im not what?

[Archon]

Originally posted by neuroking
did you know MP3 is proprietary?

No it's not. No one licenses it and it is based on open standards. MP4 is, though.

no, MP3 is licensed by Fraunhofer IIS-A (or is it F IIS-A using Thompson Electronics?)

whatever the case, Fraunhofer IIS-A holds the patents to MP3

[Changlinn]

MD has had its day.
One day MP3 will have had its too, but not with the players being created on the increase, and the players for MD on the decrease.
Yes MP3 is a proprietry format, most mp3 players support more than just mp3, like wma(another proprietry format), or ogg(a nice open source). Mini-disc is a proprietry piece of hardware and they only play mini-discs.
If you don't have all the albums you want realeased on mini-disc what do you do, you connect to your computer and write the album to the disc, just as if I don't allready have all the music I want on my mp3-player I plug it in, it doesn't bother me that I have to go to a computer...I am at one 15hours a day anyway.
I agree we(the mp3 player side) keep saying the same things, and you(the MD side) keep sticking your fingers in your ears going lalala... :P
I don't care how good mini-discs battery life is I run, mp3 player for 11 hours on a full charge for one aa battery, I always have a spare on me and that suits me fine.

[questionlp]

I guess I'm standing on both sides of the fence (owning both MiniDisc and MP3 players, though I've been using the latter more often)...

Personally, I would love to see more portable players support Ogg Vorbis, which allows even more music at the same quality level for the bitrate. That would definitely make me side towards the MP3/Ogg Vorbis side a bit more, so long as the media to store it all ain't too expensive :)

[Ioman]

Why would you want support for Ogg Vorbis? What is the advantage of Ogg over MP3? Does it sound better, or is it just a niche/cult following?

[questionlp]

Ogg Vorbis, overall, sounds better than MP3 at the same bitrate (another way of looking at it is, it sounds the same while using a lower bitrate) and supports more than 2 channels (so you could potentially create 4 channel Ogg Vorbis files or even more).

Where Ogg Vorbis really, really shines is at bitrates at or below 128kbps, where you start to get the typical MP3 artifacts even using using LAME.

Ogg Vorbis will normally encode using either VBR (variable bitrate) or ABR (average bitrate) rather than the default CBR (constant bitrate) that used with MP3. Ogg Vorbis can encode at any arbitary bitrate rather than limited to the 16, 32 or 64kbps steps found in MP3... which also means that it can actually save even a wee bit more if you want to trim the size down a wee bit more.

The other huge advantage, from the programmer or device manufacturer point of view, is that Ogg Vorbis is completely open source and free of any patents or licensing restrictions found in MP3.

I still rip and encode my CDs in MP3 format (using LAME and ABR of 268-276kbps) and some in Ogg Vorbis. I would easily switch over and go full Ogg Vorbis if the Nomad Jukebox 3 were to support Ogg Vorbis.

A bit OT - MP3 : Ogg Vorbis :: Shorten : FLAC (Shorten and FLAC are both lossless formats, but the key differences between Shorten and FLAC is that the former is not open source and FLAC is, and FLAC is more efficient and can support more channels than Shorten). Yet, you still see a lot of tape traders using Shorten :(

[Archon]

I just dont like being bound to the PC for my music needs. I just find MD to be more versatile. And more portable (be that in battery life, or sturdiness of the media) than MP3. (be the massive HDD players, or the the actual flash media from the smaller players).

I dunno, everyone I can actually talk to and argue with in person, I have managed to convert to MD (about 12 people so far). I guess I just cant do that well on here.

oh, and for the record, Ogg Vorbis is awesome.

[Changlinn]

But how are you not bound to the pc with a mini-disc, maybe you haven't noticed but albums aren't really released much on MD, hence you would have to get the muisc onto the md somehow wether it be via pc, or stereo it is about the same...
The only way I can see MD having a small resurgance is if they realese them at costs of aroung $30, then they will be entry level.
MD has its features, but those features are surpassed by faster file transfer to MP3players, more storage, less wear, and better battery utilization. As soon as I get a cd I rip it so i can listen to it on my pc while surfing etc, it is just logical and easier to directly transfer those files, to my j drive which just happens to be my 512mb mp3 player.

And yes ogg rules even when better when you have a player that supports it :P

[Archon]

MD doesnt need to be connected to a PC to record, it has a MIC and LINE IN (optical, on most)

[Changlinn]

Yeah as I said before, sticking your fingers in your ears going lalalala
my mp3 player and most mp3 players nowdays have mic's, there pretty good too mine can pick up speach accross a noisy room, from a lecturer, and it even auto pauses if I want it to if there is no speech, as for the line in, doesn't that mean that it can only record in real time which is what I used to hate about tapes...
I never used the line in on my old MD...Yes I used to have one, but it was nothing compared to my new little Riva mp3.

[joelflange]

Here's the deal:

MP3 sucks.

Here's why:

MP3 uses compression. When I record from an original CD to a CD-r using my PC nothing is compressed. I am making an exact copy of a cd. By definition, an exact digital copy of a recording is going to sound just like the original, whereas a compressed copy of a recording will have degraded audio quality.

This point will be, but can not be effectively, argued.

People will say that their MP3s sound "great", "fantastic" or "ok to them."

This is a subjective viewpoint and as such what may be great, fantastic or ok to one person may sound like crap to another.

Compressed audio can NEVER sound as good as uncompressed audio. This is an objective fact.

Why are there so many MP3 players out there? Simple. There are a lot of broke ass high school and college kids out there who want to listen to music for free. THE END. You may not be one of these, but I assure you 15 to twenty three year olds are driving the mp3 player market because they don't want to pay for music. Not because of how great the portable players are.

An audiophile who wants to listen to quality music is first going to go out and buy the original CD, then if he want a copy he is going to use a cd-recorder and is going to make a 1 to 1 copy using no compression.

If you still say that your compressed files sound fantastic this may be because you

1.have a crappy stereo system
2. crappy earphones or
3. have never heard what your music is supposed to sound like.

In any event MP3's compression makes it unsuitable for playing back on a quality stereo system. Any decent system points out the flaws inherent in MP3's compression technique.

I use a mini disc because I bought one before cd recording became popular and I have a large collection of mini discs.

While I prefer to record on CD for sound quality and simplicity's sake MD's ATRAC compression is the next best thing as far as sound quality is concerned. ATRAC compression leaves out the sounds on a recording which cannot be heard. MP3 compression, on the other hand simply reduces the file size of the entire recording reducing the overall audio quality as well.

To recap:


Sound quality is the reason a serious listener listens to music at all. In this regard CD is the winner, uncompressed CD-R recordings are second, MD is third and MP3 is not an option at all for the audiophile.


Thank you

[Cloud]

Originally posted by joelflange
Here's the deal:

MP3 sucks.

Thank you

I have to disagree with a lot of this. An MP3 compressed at 192KBPS sounds as good as near CD to the human ears. It depends a lot on how the MP3 is compressed. I stream internet music at 128KPS thru both my home stereo and my computer and the quality is outstanding.


Why are there so many MP3 players out there? Simple. There are a lot of broke ass high school and college kids out there who want to listen to music for free. THE END.

That was a dumbass statement. The MP3 format is well accepted unlike MD which is why people buy them. And if you think $399 for an Apple iPod to stor eMP3's is cheap then you are even dumber than you sound. MD is not widely accepted among consumers because hardly any company supports it!

And if I want to listen to music the way it was meant to be heard, then I will listen to it through my SACD/DVD-A Denon player at home. Sorry, but MD is dead.

[neuroking]

Originally posted by Cloud


I have to disagree with a lot of this. An MP compressed at 192KBPS sounds as good as near CD to the human ears. It depends a lot on how the MP3 is compressed. I stream internet music at 128KPS thru both my home stereo and my computer and the quality is outstanding.

That was a dumbass statement. The MP3 format is well accepted unlike MD which is why people buy them. And if you think $399 for an Apple iPod to stor eMP3's is cheap then you are even dumber than you sound. MD is not widely accepted among consumers because hardly any company supports it!

And if I want to listen to music the way it was meant to be heard, then I will listen to it through my SACD/DVD-A Denon player at home. Sorry, but MD is dead.

Haha! You beat me to it.

Duh! MP3 is compressed. Yay. Big deal. Hey guess what? TV is only shown at 30 fps! F#$$$ing digital is never as good as analog, right? Oh, wait. CDs are digital. Unless you are listening to a live analog only performance (try finding one of those nowadays), you lose quality.

MP3s are about a compromise between quality and convienence. For regular listening purposes, you don't need much higher quality. If I'm tapping away at a keyboard in my office, right next to a semi busy street, audiophile quality is not a big issue.

And another thing. If you're concerned about 'quality', remember that just about any $50 set of headphones will beat the pants off what you get with most CD or mp3 players. Check out Head-Fi (http://www.head-fi.org). Oh, and you should get a headphone amp too. After all that, THEN compare them again. A nicely encoded MP3 is remarkable clear.

This is the thread that never ends... it just goes on and on my friend....

Brandon

[Changlinn]

HEHEHE, I agree if your hearing is so good that you can hear all the audio anomolies in a 192kbps mp3 then you should just buy a portable audio-dvd player and be done with it.
So MP3 uses lossy compression, as far as I was aware so does MD, but guess what that is the beuty of mp3 players, choice, I can install lossless compression codecs on to my player meaning they sound better than any MD can, but mp3 is convenient, more people have them and there is no limit to the amount of times I am aloud to copy a file over(wtf?)
By the way I bought my player not because it was cheap but because it has the best snr(signal to noise ratio) of any mp3 player, better than most cd/md players too, and all my mp3's that I have on there bar two I have on cd(and there free ones I got from mp3.com and musiclover), I just don't want to carry around a bulky, super skiperthon 2000 cd player :P
And I don't want an MD that few people have, is limited to its own crappy format and more specifically has moving parts.
Long live choice.

[joelflange]

I listen to my CDs with a Rega Planet cd player, Grado headphones and a Creek headphone amp. My ears are good enough to detect the difference between a CD-R copied from CD and an MP3. This is because there is a difference.

Regarding the cheapness driving the market: Most MP3 players are cheaper than the IPOD. some are very cheap. MP3s are free using bear share and kazaa. This is why the format is popular. MD is unpopular because Americans as a rule do not use walkman's. This is because most of us do not walk much. Why then do MP3 players sell? Because the music is as cheap as cheap can be, i.e. free.


In Europe and Asia MD is far from dead. In Asia Md is mega popular. One look around the net will clue you in to this.

Now for all those who trumpet the sound quality of MP3 why are MP3 players sold in Best Buy and not in real stereo shops?

How come quality CD players aren't sold in Best Buy, but are sold in real stereo shops?

Gee, I wonder.

Oh, could it be that MP3 players can't reproduce sound that cd players can? Could it be that those who care about the quality of their music over the price of it wouldn't be caught dead with an mp3 player?

I think the facts speak for themselves.


booyah.

[Cloud]

Originally posted by joelflange
I listen to my CDs with a Rega Planet cd player, Grado headphones and a Creek headphone amp. My ears are good enough to detect the difference between a CD-R copied from CD and an MP3. This is because there is a difference.

Regarding the cheapness driving the market: Most MP3 players are cheaper than the IPOD. some are very cheap. MP3s are free using bear share and kazaa. This is why the format is popular. MD is unpopular because Americans as a rule do not use walkman's. This is because most of us do not walk much. Why then do MP3 players sell? Because the music is as cheap as cheap can be, i.e. free.


In Europe and Asia MD is far from dead. In Asia Md is mega popular. One look around the net will clue you in to this.

Now for all those who trumpet the sound quality of MP3 why are MP3 players sold in Best Buy and not in real stereo shops?

How come quality CD players aren't sold in Best Buy, but are sold in real stereo shops?

Gee, I wonder.

Oh, could it be that MP3 players can't reproduce sound that cd players can? Could it be that those who care about the quality of their music over the price of it wouldn't be caught dead with an mp3 player?

I think the facts speak for themselves.


booyah.

No offense bro, but those are opinions, not facts. Facts would be:

- How many MD players are sold versus MP3 players in Europe and Asia

- A compression ratio comparison between the two formats

- Are cheap portable CD players really sold at Best Buy, and expensive ones sold at stereo stores? I thought all portable CD players are somewhat inexpensive now?

-How do you know American's do not like Walkmans? Facts would be numbers showing how many walkmans are sold in the US versus other countries.

-MP3's are not popular only because they are free, but because every CD wrtier on the market comes with MP3 playing software, ripping software etc..they do not come with MD software..


Now here is one for you. Perhaps MD is more popular in Asia because they are not as "connected" to the internet like the US therfore getting MP3's is not as easy. I hardly think their need for better quality sound is more than the U.S.. Last time I checked, their median salary in Asia, was pretty low bro...

Bottom line is that MP3's are more popular because they are more supported by companies, more accessible and wanted by consumers more. MD may on paper look better, but I hardly think that your ears can tell the difference between an MP3 recorded at 192KBPS and a MD. And if you say you can then you are a lieing biased MD Zealot who is just defending the high purchased product you bought...


BOOYA!!!

[neuroking]

Hrm... so your rationale for MD players not being popular in the US is that most ppl don't use on the go music devices. But that specifically why mp3 players are popular. Small. non-skip, high capacity.

MP3s are popular because they are versatile and free. And easy to share. And supported by nearly every music program under the sun. And burnable to regular old CDs. etc etc etc. the list goes on. What do MD players offer? A small list.

And as for the store comparison... two things. First, every major high end manufacturer is introducing some form of computer link to play mp3s via their receiver. Second, when something becomes TRUELY popular, the price for components goes down and manufacturing becomes more efficient. Manufacturing becomes more efficient when there is a large enough market that profit margins for a components can be reduced because volume increases. Take that in comparison to MD players. How many companies make them? Oh, and if you wanna be audiophile grade, I hope you aren't counting Sony. Add to that that competition leads to enhancement, and MD has alot of strikes against it. And the last time I saw anything more than a token MD or CD player at a high end store, I can't remember. Of course they also have token MP3 players.

As a user above said, get a DVD-A/SACD player. Oh, and many of them will also play MP3 cds. Not sure how many, if any, will have an MD slot.

Lastly, since many people listen to music in their cars, and I would argue as their primary place of actual listening (nothing else to do), I have not seena single manufacturer include in dash MD players, but they all have MP3 CD players in at least one model. Not even luxury cars include them, where you would expect quality was important.

We'll also ignore the argument that mp3s have essentially revolutionized the actual use of music, while MDs are just another portable device with small advantages over CD.

Bizzzzam!

[Archon]

You want to know the real reason MD didnt pick up?

Because CDs had just come out recently, and Americans are cheap. They dont wanna have to then think about another medium to use.

Oh, and your argument about CD players in cars... a good number of cars dont even come with CD players, just tape decks (and what year is this?). (just thought like throwing that in, because half your arguments have no meaning either) :cool:

Likewise, you know the reason MP3 players picked up is because of Napster. If Napster never came around, MP3s would be like unknown (you remember getting MP3s before Napster? friggin FTP sites... was a mess). MP3 players became popular because people downloaded music. Simple.

Another reason for MD being less popular than CDs, for instance, is that most computers (for quite a while now) come with CD drives. For data, CD is a much better medium than MD/MO. (although not really, I've seen a MO hold 5.2gb, but they're expensive)... but for all extensive purposes, CD is better.

The main problem I see over this entire discussion is that people arent comparing MP3 players to MD players, they are comparing MP3 to MiniDisc. I have news for you, MP3s arent real. MP3s do not actually exist outside of your little digital device. When you argue for MP3s, you are actually talking about several media.... I lost my train of thought on this, and since Im drunk I'll just say what I was gonna say next...

Anyways, you're comparing a digital file against an actual physical medium. You cant compare a GIF file to a drawing on a peice of paper. But you can print the GIF to a peice of paper, at which time, they are the same physical thing.

You are comparing a format, a digital format, to a disc. What you need to understand right now is that there is no real difference between MD and MP3. That is what the whole NetMD thing solved, MD is now just another medium with which to hold your MP3s. True, Sony's OpenMG and all that fun bull **** limits you, but seriously, how many times do you need to copy a song to a disk? I certainly dont have a problem with that system (my only greivance is that OpenMG the program, sucks balls). As for comparing ATRAC to MP3, all I can say is :o . I never use ATRAC on the PC (save for when I copy my class recordings over from my Clie), so ATRAC is really just on your MD. Thats like comparing CDA to MP3. ITS DIFFERENT.

uhhh....

Likewise, we can go back into the medium argument. You have to admit that compared to CDs, MiniDisc are just much much better. They're small, dont scratch, dont skip (depending on ur player) and hell, that just look sexy.

So, look at it this way then, MD players/recorders are MP3 players (which just happen to save their MP3s in ATRAC format, BUT WHAT DOES IT MATTER), and can also edit, change, remove, rename, etc... the songs AWAY from the PC.

Im sure I can think of more stuff to bash you people with (you and your single, straight ahead thinking... if its MD, its gotta suck balls) ideasn stuff. But I dont want to! take that!

and now to end with some stupid word to make people think I owned them with some stupid arguments...

huzzah!

[Ioman]

Here is more food for thought. Perhaps MD never took off because Sony owns the rights to it (do they?). Just like betamax, other manufacturers will be hesitant to jump on any bandwagon in which they have to pay royalties to a competing company.

This is why there is often meetings where multiple comanies work together to develop a format and then agree to support it. Perhaps this never happened with MD.

[joelflange]

In many other countries including those in japan and europe md is fantastically popular. If you go to Akihabara, the major center for buying electronics in Tokyo, MD is everywhere. It is also made by sharp, aiwa, panasonic and sony.

As far as token cd players at high end stores, cd players are still looked as the standard for high quality audio in such stores.

As an example look at my rega planet. a phenomenal player and not a dvd a or sacd playerr. just an awesome cd player.

http://www.rega.co.uk/html/planet.htm

Oh and to show you how little you know about md and how much you assume there are several indash md players.

http://www.infinitecaraudio.com/cgi-bin/icastore.cgi?user_action=list&category=MiniDisc

or just do a google search for in dash md players

lastly, as MD also plays mp3 files, it can also record in real time thus achieving superior sound quality.

Look at it this way, if you try to stuff six fat people in a VW bug some important parts of those fat people will be left outside when you close the door.

Same thing when you try to stuff twenty albums on a cd. This is a case where you can't have your cake and it it too. File size and sound quality are directly corelated.

Yabadabadoo!

[neuroking]

You want to know the real reason MD didnt pick up?

Because CDs had just come out recently, and Americans are cheap. They dont wanna have to then think about another medium to use.

Haha! What you really mean to say is that Americans are good consumers. They weigh the pros and cons of not only the format, but the device. Hey, most people don't want to carry around 15 different devices and 15 different copies of the same music, or have 15 different stack stereo components. And how does cheap=not wanting to think about carrying different mediums. That conclusion and argument are like saying MDs suck because their quality isn't as bendable as floppy discs.

Oh, and your argument about CD players in cars... a good number of cars dont even come with CD players, just tape decks (and what year is this?). (just thought like throwing that in, because half your arguments have no meaning either) :cool:

Tape decks are cheap. They let car manufacturers add money on for their 'entertainment package'. Notice I said 'option'. Still, no MD options. And if you're saying people don't care about quality in their cars, then why are THX certified systems being installed now?

Likewise, you know the reason MP3 players picked up is because of Napster. If Napster never came around, MP3s would be like unknown (you remember getting MP3s before Napster? friggin FTP sites... was a mess). MP3 players became popular because people downloaded music. Simple.

I had a ton of mp3s before napster.I'll agree with this point in general, though.

Another reason for MD being less popular than CDs, for instance, is that most computers (for quite a while now) come with CD drives. For data, CD is a much better medium than MD/MO. (although not really, I've seen a MO hold 5.2gb, but they're expensive)... but for all extensive purposes, CD is better.

Seems to be an on chip compression scheme could have been devised that would allow MDs to hold more info. Just like the different formats for music. If it was integrated into the device, there'd be no processor overhead, and generall transparent.

And now the blue laser DVD-Rs are coming. That'll be wicked.

The main problem I see over this entire discussion is that people arent comparing MP3 players to MD players, they are comparing MP3 to MiniDisc. I have news for you, MP3s arent real. MP3s do not actually exist outside of your little digital device. When you argue for MP3s, you are actually talking about several media.... I lost my train of thought on this, and since Im drunk I'll just say what I was gonna say next...

MP3s are the curtain that has been pulled over your eyes. Now choose the red pill or the blue pill....

Anyways, you're comparing a digital file against an actual physical medium. You cant compare a GIF file to a drawing on a peice of paper. But you can print the GIF to a peice of paper, at which time, they are the same physical thing.

So, you just proved MP3s are capable of producing the same thing.

You are comparing a format, a digital format, to a disc. What you need to understand right now is that there is no real difference between MD and MP3. That is what the whole NetMD thing solved, MD is now just another medium with which to hold your MP3s. True, Sony's OpenMG and all that fun bull **** limits you, but seriously, how many times do you need to copy a song to a disk? I certainly dont have a problem with that system (my only greivance is that OpenMG the program, sucks balls). As for comparing ATRAC to MP3, all I can say is :o . I never use ATRAC on the PC (save for when I copy my class recordings over from my Clie), so ATRAC is really just on your MD. Thats like comparing CDA to MP3. ITS DIFFERENT.

Yes, but it is hard to separate the medium from the device. And last I heard, ATRAC can't be copied off a device without it being in realtime. Sure they're different, but they do the same thing. Encode sound. So they get compared. Just like you can compare a plasma and a CRT montor.

Likewise, we can go back into the medium argument. You have to admit that compared to CDs, MiniDisc are just much much better. They're small, dont scratch, dont skip (depending on ur player) and hell, that just look sexy.

Yes, very true. Althought the skipping thing is less of a big deal now.

So, look at it this way then, MD players/recorders are MP3 players (which just happen to save their MP3s in ATRAC format, BUT WHAT DOES IT MATTER), and can also edit, change, remove, rename, etc... the songs AWAY from the PC.

*insert previous posts here*

Im sure I can think of more stuff to bash you people with (you and your single, straight ahead thinking... if its MD, its gotta suck balls) ideasn stuff. But I dont want to! take that!

Hey, the topic is "What's the deal with MiniDiscs?" I never saw a decent advantage to them, so i decided to argue that they're unnecessary. People that own them get all offended and argue back.

and now to end with some stupid word to make people think I owned them with some stupid arguments...
huzzah!

yeh, well..

shimazaaabamm!
:dunno

And a token inclusion for the next response....
Oh and to show you how little you know about md and how much you assume there are several indash md players.


I said as a option from automakers. I'm sure there are indash MD players. But I can get a new car and get a friggin DVD/VCR/CD/MP3 player installed, but I have to go elsewhere for MDs. As for that site you posted, they had 4 MD players, and about 70 MP3 CD players.

lastly, as MD also plays mp3 files, it can also record in real time thus achieving superior sound quality.

*holds back laughter* What?!?! I agree they can record in real time. Explain how that provides 'superior quality'. Especially since it is still a digital format, and not analog. And MDs can play MP3s, yes.

So to copy from an MD, you have to actually wait for a D/A conversion. Anything else, and you hit the copy protection. At this point you lose quality. No matter what. If you are trying to 'record' the MD, after this point, it will be less crisp. If you use MP3s, you 'copy' the data, the exact 1's and 0's of the file are copied bit or bit. Copying an MD track is like re-encoding an MP3.

File size and sound quality are directly corelated.

So if I record a wav and then zip it, is it the same quality? (and assume I have a player that does hardware decompression) Not all digital compression is lossy. Some is. Some have varying degrees, like MP3 encoding rates. Let's put it this way:
if I can make 1001010111 equal 11010 I just halved the file size. And if when 11010 is run through a certain algoritm it outputs 1001010111, I have lost nothing. Unfortunately, analog would be like saying 1 followed by every decimal between 1 and 0, remain at 0, every decimal between 0 and 1. Etc. Since computers are limited to a finite number set, albeit in some cases a very large number set, they will never produce the quality of a live performance. Digital/Analog conversion in either direction is lossy. This is why some ppl will swear by vinyl albums. They are as analog as you can get, since the physical size of 'bits' would be the size of the record needle and the molecules of vinyl. Another limiting factor is the audible range of frequencies and amplitudes detected by human ears. And yet another is how sound interacts with the environment (reflects off walls, diffuses from source, etc.) File formats generally take into account only human audible range and cut the unneccessary parts of the sound waves that could be affected by the environment. That's after the analog spectrum is removed. That's A->D. D->A tries to recreate the missing interspace but since you are missing actual original data, it is impossible to do this entirely. To convince yourself of this, draw a sine wave. Then redraw that sine wave with only 4 point and straingt lines. Now try 8, 16 , 32 points. The wave gets closer to the original, but never the same. And you can't bend the lines (that's analog).

Sooooooooo anyways, I guess that earns you a....
Tzackackackanzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

[Archon]

Im too lazy to hit quote, so here...

"Haha! What you really mean to say is that Americans are good consumers. They weigh the pros and cons of not only the format, but the device. Hey, most people don't want to carry around 15 different devices and 15 different copies of the same music, or have 15 different stack stereo components. And how does cheap=not wanting to think about carrying different mediums. That conclusion and argument are like saying MDs suck because their quality isn't as bendable as floppy discs. "

wtf are you talking about little man. Go back to bed.

"Seems to be an on chip compression scheme could have been devised that would allow MDs to hold more info. Just like the different formats for music. If it was integrated into the device, there'd be no processor overhead, and generall transparent.

And now the blue laser DVD-Rs are coming. That'll be wicked. "

okay... aaaannnddd?

"MP3s are the curtain that has been pulled over your eyes. Now choose the red pill or the blue pill.... "

wtf are you talking about

"So, you just proved MP3s are capable of producing the same thing"

MP3 is a digital format, it isnt a physical medium. Dope person. U can put MP3s on MiniDisc -- I dont understand what you are arguing about!

"Yes, but it is hard to separate the medium from the device. And last I heard, ATRAC can't be copied off a device without it being in realtime. Sure they're different, but they do the same thing. Encode sound. So they get compared. Just like you can compare a plasma and a CRT montor. "

No, you still dont get it. You're comparing something which doesnt actually exist outside of 1's and 0's to a physical device which plays them.

------------------------

anyways, the point Im trying to reach here is that you need to stop arguing pro-MP3s. MiniDisc players are MP3 players, only they put the MP3s on MiniDisc. THATS IT. Stop arguing about how MP3 is better than ATRAC and all that BS, we're talking about players.

One major problem I see is that we have a communication failture on what MP3 is. When I say MP3 I mean the actual .mp3 format that you download. You (people) are taking MP3 to mean the actual MP3 player itself, like an iPod or a Rio.. or whatever they are. I say MP3 player when Im talking about that. To make a valid argument, you would need to argue something like... MP3 vs. Ogg. But right now, you're arguing like... JPEG file vs. ZIP Disks. It doesnt work...

Im gonna go now drinky time :)

uhhh

antidisestablishmentarianisnat!

[beagleguy]

Originally posted by neuroking

Can jog with:
Minidisc: no
CD/MP3: no
MP3 ss: yes
MP3 jukebox: no (if you want it to last)


Bradon:

Have you ever jogged with a good CD player? Two years ago I jogged nightly with a cheap Philips cd player with 45 seconds skip protection. Didn't play mp3s, but it could read cd-rw, so that 45 seconds should have been about 8 megabytes.

I'd jog 3 miles in ~25 minutes with that thing and it never skipped.

That was only with 45 seconds. With the 2+ minutes that mp3 cd players have I would only assume the results would be the same.

Now I jog with a Nex II and $50 256meg CF card. By your estimates that's 7 albums (if a 700meg mp3 CD is 20 albums).

You also have to remember that mp3 CD players require users to have a cd burner. Although many people already have one (probably everyone here) I know plenty of people (AOL users, etc) that do not. That's an additional expense that MiniDisc and MP3 SS users do not have to worry about.

I'm not defending MiniDisc at all, for what it does it's horribly overpriced, but if you need a small, portable player with cheap media for many hours of music it does serve that purpose.

[beagleguy]

Originally posted by Archon

I dunno, everyone I can actually talk to and argue with in person, I have managed to convert to MD (about 12 people so far). I guess I just cant do that well on here.


Obviously you are talking to the wrong people, or perhaps they let you win so you shut-up ;)

Only way MD would win is if a small size & battery life is more important than money and "cheap" media is necessary. Otherwise mp3 cd is better (larger and shorter battery life, but cheaper) or mp3 ss (small, no cheap media).

My question is why did Mathew Edwards try to make this arguement in the first place?. The arguement between MiniDisc vs MP3 CD & mp3 ss has been going on for years, and as time moves on the MiniDisc arguement has gotten weaker and weaker.

Mathew Edwards: Other companies need to embrace the MiniDisc and as consumers in the U.S. we will just keep missing these great technologies if we are not more open minded.

Isn't MiniDisc owned by Sony?!? What do other companies have to do with it?? Does anyone besides Sony make MiniDisc players? It's like memorysticks: does anyone besides Sony use memorystick with their devices?

I don't know about you guys, but Mathew Edwards has lost all credibility to me. Had he made this argument a few years back it would have meant something, but now it seems he's just trying to start a flame war over a dead format.

[Archon]

I only typed this thing up as a rant when I was drunk one night and they decided to put it on the main page.

As for the rest of your rants, I suggest you to STFU. You have steered away form the main premise of this thread which is to discuss Minidisc. your attempting to bash me is just stupid, rest assured if I was admin of this thread, your fag ass would be banned

and btw, other companies make MD. If you maybe read this thread you would know that.

I dont know about you guys, but I think beagleguy has lost all credability with me (not that he had any in the first place), what kind of moron sits around and attempts to bash someone for writing an article? Seriously, you took an thread discussing MD and turned it against me. fckn moron...

angry mod wont let me curse ;)

[beagleguy]

Originally posted by neuroking

joelflange moron said: [b]lastly, as MD also plays mp3 files, it can also record in real time thus achieving superior sound quality.

*holds back laughter* What?!?! I agree they can record in real time. Explain how that provides 'superior quality'. Especially since it is still a digital format, and not analog. And MDs can play MP3s, yes.

So to copy from an MD, you have to actually wait for a D/A conversion. Anything else, and you hit the copy protection. At this point you lose quality. No matter what. If you are trying to 'record' the MD, after this point, it will be less crisp. If you use MP3s, you 'copy' the data, the exact 1's and 0's of the file are copied bit or bit. Copying an MD track is like re-encoding an MP3.


neuroking,

After reading what joelflange moron said about MD playing mp3 files achieving superior sound quality I'm surprised you bothered responding at all.

Yes Joel, Sony has special "music fairies" put into every MD player. They sprinkle music fairy dust onto the mp3s and they magically have better sound quality then they did before! The dust adds more sound and a wider dynamic to the music. How? No one knows, the music fairies won't tell anyone, but it's a commonly known fact to every MD owner world-wide.

IN fact, it's not just mp3s, it's all music played through a MD player. Magically it sounds better than it ever has before!

Thanks music fairies!

[Archon]

*holds back urge to verbally destroy beagleguy*

Ioman, can I? plllzzzz

[joelflange]

yes beagleman is my new hero. What a sarcastic turdmonkey.

Of course when i said that I prefer md this is because i never use it to record mp3s. I only use it with a digital cable from a good cd player to record an original cd in real time. Recording this way provides better sound than mp3s jammed on a cd

at 20 per cd!!!!!

Sizlak!

[neuroking]

wtf are you talking about little man. Go back to bed.

... and if I remove the original quote this makes jsut as much sense. :)

wtf are you talking about

Well, wtf was "mp3s aren't REAL man."

MP3 is a digital format, it isnt a physical medium. Dope person. U can put MP3s on MiniDisc -- I dont understand what you are arguing about!

Silly carbon sack of water. What you had said in the previous post was counter to what you were claiming. No more drunky posts for you!

anyways, the point Im trying to reach here is that you need to stop arguing pro-MP3s. MiniDisc players are MP3 players, only they put the MP3s on MiniDisc. THATS IT. Stop arguing about how MP3 is better than ATRAC and all that BS, we're talking about players.

I am looking at the entire "MiniDisc Phenomenon" vs the "MP3 Phenomenon". Removing discussion of all aspects (differenc ein media, portability, quality, availability, etc.) is a waste of time and provides no actually useful information to anybody. It's like saying I have a music format that takes 2 kb for 500 minutes of CD quality audio, but not a single player exists. Then who would care?

One major problem I see is that we have a communication failture on what MP3 is. When I say MP3 I mean the actual .mp3 format that you download. You (people) are taking MP3 to mean the actual MP3 player itself, like an iPod or a Rio.. or whatever they are. I say MP3 player when Im talking about that. To make a valid argument, you would need to argue something like... MP3 vs. Ogg. But right now, you're arguing like... JPEG file vs. ZIP Disks. It doesnt work...

As I said above, you have to look at the whole picture if you want to get anything useful out of talking about a device carrying data or a data format. My argument is more of the type "which is better: film based photography or digital?" Again, you have to look at the use, as well as the devices, technology, etc etc etc.

Ooeeooahhahhbingbangwallawallabingbang!

Have you ever jogged with a good CD player?

Yes, I've tried the 45+ second ones and they still crap out every once in a while. Plus I just don't like jogging with anything with all those moving parts. It's like I can hear the screws untightening. I haven't tried with my iRiver 350 yet, though. i think it has the 2 minute+ esp for mp3s. Right now I have an older psaplay with 128MB (when i got it, it was either that or the ipaq for the size, and with 128MB memory, so none of those 'eww nike' comments! lol)

You also have to remember that mp3 CD players require users to have a cd burner.

True. But if you made it to this site, chances are you at least have access to a cd burner. I think Archon mentioned way back the fact that MDs don't need a computer at all. I'm not sure that anyone that can afford a MD player would not have a computer as well. Same goes for an MP3 player. i would think that if you were out 'buying stuff' you would think 'hey, I really should get a computer for reasons x, y, z, a, b, c...... and then I can worry about getting a portable music device."

Bizaabaabaaa... oh wait. there was no pwnage... er nevermind

It's like memorysticks: does anyone besides Sony use memorystick with their devices?

I would bet that since most people don't understand the whole MagicGate scheme, Sony has a remarkably low market share on mp3 devices. Another thign to note on MSes is that Sony sets teh standards for MS, and look how far MS has fallen behind CF and SM cards. They can't even keep the damn things compatible (MS, MG MS, MS Duo, MS pro, MS select) You can literally see the string of bandaids on the media. This is part of what I was saying about competition, if you relate it to MDs and the ATRAC format.

I don't know about you guys, but Mathew Edwards has lost all credibility to me.

I wouldn't say that, but i really think this was, as I think he said, something he just kinda brainstormed and wrote up (correct me if I'm wrong). I think there's a hell of alot of other interesting new tech out there that this article was, not sure what the right word would be, but maybe unnecessary? I could understand it is there was a daily article posted, but this has been up there for weeks now.

And come on now, guy. You can't come on the board and expect ppl to really take your side too much when you're sporting 3 posts and flaming an admin.
:slap

baddabinfbaddab... oh wait no pwnage again.

beagleguy, dammit it's not about the fairies! It's the fairy dust jeeez.... that's like comparing carrots to long slender orange vegetables eaten by rabbits. You jsut can't do it! oh...

Of course when i said that I prefer md this is because i never use it to record mp3s. I only use it with a digital cable from a good cd player to record an original cd in real time. Recording this way provides better sound than mp3s jammed on a cd

I would think the big advantage to MDs is that the ATRAC format GENERALLY provides better quality than mp3s are GENERALLY encoded in. But, you have to now stash that MD away or re-record it ever time you want to listen... and again we get into the relative advantages of MD and MP3 players and the .mp3 format vs the ATRAC format.

Sizlak!

That's way too close to "similak" which is a pediatric formula. Sorry, your pwnage tag has been denied.

whatyoutalkinaboutwillisssszzzowie!

Brandon

[djvibe]

Hey all: I´ve been following this thread with a lot of interest, and would like to say it´s been going really well, well it was until I got to the 5th page and the replies just turned into insults! I´ve been a proponent of MD for about 5 years now, which isn´t to say I hate every other format. I love new electronics in general. I´d just like to argue some points:

I think MD never took off in the USA because of several reasons:
When it came out, it sounded horrible. It sounded like tape, and was supposed to be a replacement for it. Furthermore, it cost a ridiculous amount of money, and the player itself was about the size of a tape walkman. Media was hard to find and barely any albums came out on MD.

Fast forward to now, where MD is huge in Japan and Europe, and even Australia, whereas in the US it barely exists. Also keep in mind that MP3 took off in the US because of highly available, cheap internet access and large bandwidth.

Anyway, here are my reasons for still using MD...

1. I can put any format onto MD...be it MP3, ogg vorbis, etc. I will never be harmed by any sort of copyrighted files or anything...anything that outputs sound from a headphone jack or RCA output I can record.
2. The players really really are tiny...check out the mz-e10 at
http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sony_MZ-E10.html
3. The battery life is really, really, really long. True I only use it on the train about 2 hours a day, but it lasts me two weeks without having to bother to charge it..I leave it in my bag or in my pocket and use it the next day...no need to recharge.
4. I can change discs. For me, this is an advantage. Even with a 256MB memory card I can store a ton of songs, but there is a limit. With MD I can carry discs of every style with me, and change whenever I want.
5. I go jogging almost every day with my MD player...with MDLP 2 I get 80 seconds of shock protection. It never ever skips. and as for the fact that it´s mechanical and it´ll "wear out"...basically the buttons on an MP3 player will break at the same time, in about 3 years when I´ll want something else anyway.
Here is what I considered purchasing:
MP3 CD player: For me, most of them are ugly. They´re big, no matter how thin they are, they won´t fit in my shirt pocket. An MD player will. An MD player is sleek and sexy.

MP3 jukebox: The archos etc just don´t appeal to me...the only one I would consider would be an IPOD. With an ipod you can store billions of songs, the battery life is long, it´s sleek and sexy and...well...awesome. This to me seems the evolution of portable music. I, however, like to have something tangible as a music collection...IE if my hard drive crashes I don´t lose all my songs. Other than that, it's bigger than an MD player and the battery life isn´t as long.
Portable MP3 player a la rio...doesn´t skip, portable, very very tiny, fast file transfer. However, shorter battery life, can´t change media, and I can´t have an album of flashcards.

So there you go. If I could, I´ve have an MD player AND an Ipod...but I don´t have that much money, so I choose MD. For me, it´s perfect. For others understandably it´s not. The fact that it´s mechanical may prevent some people from going jogging with it. Some people hate changing discs. I carry a backpack to work with a case logic MD wallet, change discs whenever I´m in the mood, and enjoy the music! I´ve had some discs for 5 years now and they stil work great...they´ve been tossed around, stepped on etc and they´re still perfect. the battery life is perfect for me and best of all I can show them off because they´re sleek! Anyway, sorry for the rant but I had to let go!

Enjoy all your portable music players, whatever they may be!

[pookyhead34]

I recently gave my wife my NetMD recorder/player because I bought an Archos Recorder 20 which I put a 40GB hard drive in. The build quality of the Archos is not as solid as I'd like (but then, compare the new Sony NetMD units, especially the budget-priced ones, to the old-school Sharp and Sony units you could bludgeon someone to death with without making them skip), but that's really the only thing I dislike about it. There's open-source replacement firmware for it (Rockbox), its line-in MP3 recordings sound phenomenal, especially if you choose 48KHz -- although that might be the same principle like how your car seems to run better after you wash it ;). And I don't have to change from AGC to manual level control every time and can adjust recording levels on the fly, etc. And editing is even easier than with MD -- I use Total Recorder and MP3DirectCut to edit the MP3's I record with it, no recompression involved. Plus it's USB 2.0, which is even faster than FireWire -- and shows up like an external hard drive (using it for that, too, is quite handy, since it's quicker to copy a bunch of stuff to the Archos and carry it into the other room and plug it in, then copy it to the other computer, than it is to copy it over my home network via my laptop's wireless card.) And I just got tired of looking through my discs for the MD that had the album I wanted to listen to that day.

Now -- things one could see as disadvantages compared to MD:
I drop this thing one time too many and 35GB of MP3's are GONE -- I dropped the MZ-N505 probably 20 or 30 times and it never missed a beat (of course, I wasn't as careful as I am with the Archos for that very reason!). Battery life is shorter than MD (8-12 hours depending on what the mA rating of the batteries I'm using, but I have a charger and keep freshly-charged ones in the freezer). Bulkier than MD's. More expensive than MD's. Digital in is coaxial rather than optical (as is the digital out -- which would make copying digitally to MD a pain. But at least it's got one!) Built-in mic is okay for voice recording, but the mic sits right on top of the hard drive, so you get a LOT of noise with whatever you're recording. And there's no mic-in jack (but there wasn't one with the MZ-N505, either.)

I still think MD is one of the coolest damn things I've ever seen. And while M3U2SimpleBurner (and other ways of automating the CD image-to-Simple Burner process) is a nice workaround, it still involves too many steps. I think the way Sony is marketing some of the NetMD units now -- as "ATRAC3 Downloaders" -- is a big mistake. They're removing the "record anything from anywhere" aspect of MD from it, which is just stupid.

[Ioman]

Originally posted by djvibe


Enjoy all your portable music players, whatever they may be!

I couldn't have said it any better. To each his own!

Buy what you like and have fun with it!:)

[neuroking]

This made me think of this little thread...

http://psp.ps3insider.com/hardware/0003.html

Could this be a 'Minidisc 2'?

Anyone else not sure about this? Seems to me the form factor and capacity are not that big of an improvement over the MD.

There's there's a topic for a talkback. Discuss.....

:)

[beagleguy]

Originally posted by neuroking
And come on now, guy. You can't come on the board and expect ppl to really take your side too much when you're sporting 3 posts and flaming an admin.

point is he's beating a dead horse... no, it's worse than that: the horse has been dead for years, and he's still beating it. I can't count how many MD vs mp3 CD player vs MP3 SS articles have I read over the years, and like I said every time the argument for MD get's weaker, with memory getting cheaper, CD burners showing up in more PCs, and mp3 CD players getting cheaper, but MD doesn't change, the player and media prices are nearly unchanged.

If some of the people want to support the admin no matter what he says then that's their problem. I think for myself, and if I don't like the admin's opinion I'll tell him.

It's 2003. MD came out what, mid 90s? What's next, article on how the N64 is better than the XBOX? Give me a break.

and should I care if people take my side? So far the only people I've upset are Archon and joelflange, pro-MD people, why am I not surprised they don't like my opposing position?

Besides, Archon said somehow he can persuade people in person to support MD but can't persuade us (that makes a lot of sense, guess facial features and hand gestures make all the difference) and joelflange said "lastly, as MD also plays mp3 files, it can also record in real time thus achieving superior sound quality. " which is obviously wrong, so I made fun of his statement, and so he's mad at me.

[beagleguy]

Originally posted by djvibe

1. I can put any format onto MD...be it MP3, ogg vorbis, etc. I will never be harmed by any sort of copyrighted files or anything...anything that outputs sound from a headphone jack or RCA output I can record.
2. The players really really are tiny...check out the mz-e10 at
http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sony_MZ-E10.html
3. The battery life is really, really, really long. True I only use it on the train about 2 hours a day, but it lasts me two weeks without having to bother to charge it..I leave it in my bag or in my pocket and use it the next day...no need to recharge.
4. I can change discs. For me, this is an advantage. Even with a 256MB memory card I can store a ton of songs, but there is a limit. With MD I can carry discs of every style with me, and change whenever I want.
5. I go jogging almost every day with my MD player...with MDLP 2 I get 80 seconds of shock protection. It never ever skips. and as for the fact that it´s mechanical and it´ll "wear out"...basically the buttons on an MP3 player will break at the same time, in about 3 years when I´ll want something else anyway.
Here is what I considered purchasing:
MP3 CD player: For me, most of them are ugly. They´re big, no matter how thin they are, they won´t fit in my shirt pocket. An MD player will. An MD player is sleek and sexy.


1. Is that correct? Thought everything on the MD was ATRAC format. So you're not really putting a mp3, ogg or wma file on there, you're converting it to ATRAC format. In that case you can do that with any mp3 player.

2. Long as MD players use MD and have moving parts they'll never be as small as the smallest mp3 ss players.

3. Can't argue with you there, course your 2 hours/day x 2 weeks = only 14 hours, comparable with mp3 ss players.

4. Can't argue against that, but as memory becomes cheaper that's not going to be much of an arguement. 512megs of compactflash is now less than $100, which will hold ~8.5 hours of mp3s, much more wma. In a year it'll be half that, and probably a quarter the price in two years. I suppose you could always use that reason for MD players though, no matter how cheap memory becomes.

5. MP3 SS players don't skip.

[beagleguy]

Originally posted by neuroking
This made me thing of this little thread...

http://psp.ps3insider.com/hardware/0003.html

Could this be a 'Minidisc 2'?

Anyone else not sure about this? Seems to me the form factor and capacity are not that big of an improvement over the MD.

There's there's a topic for a talkback. Discuss.....

:)

That site seems to indicate so, we'll have to wait and see. That would certainly change this discussion if MD was 1.8gigs instead of 160 megs MD is in audio mode:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question55.htm

[beagleguy]

found a review of ATRAC 3
http://www.soundexpert.info/

doesn't seem to be toping the chart....

[beagleguy]

One last thing... I found this at a minidisct.com:
http://www.minidisct.com/pic/md_hipzip.gif

doesn't have a date, but going by those pricesit must have been written years ago.

Funny thing is the total price difference between MiniDisc and CompactFlash would be only $80 now. You'd have to carry around 20 MDs and only three 512meg Compact Flash. Course if you lose a MD who cares, it's only $3...

CompactFlash mp3 players don't even cost $150 anymore. My NexII was less than $100 last year. Plays wma too, which, in my opinion (and that of www.soundexpert.info) wma sounds better than mp3, and it's a smaller file size.

At any rate it's obvious people love their MD players. Hey if you're happy more power to you, I'm just hear to offer a different opinion.

p.s. this is funny:
http://www.t-station.net/md_vs_all.html "The various existing MD equipments, along with the removable colorful discs and labels, be can be easily individualized to show different personal styles. MP3s uses non-removable media, hard to be personalized."

jeez.... now they're arguing for MD because it's offered in different colors.... 03 dodge viper is only available in red, black and silver, does that mean neon's are better cars? what a pathetic arguement, talking about grasping for straws...

the sad thing is that's the third page of their "MiniDisc Introduction" and they left out all the MP3 advantages... they're not biased or anything ;)

[Archon]

Im at a loss for that graph, its weird...

but anyways, MDs are $2 each now, and they hold 160 minutes. and most units are $150 now, in the American market, atleast.

So, a DMB CD is 1:10:15, and 67mb, so thats about 2 DMB CDs on 1 MD for $2, which is 134mb... so uhh... unless u wanna take some songs out, you need a 256mb card for it, which according to this graph is.... bah I have no clue, lets ask newegg...Sandisk Secure Digital 256MB Card, Model SDSDB-256-781 RetailThe , $72.00...

Anyways, to your 512mb argument, a SimpleTech 512MB Secure Digital Card (SD Card) -Model STI-SD/512 Retail is $299.00. And sinec CF cards are cheap, I'll throw that in as well... Newegg's cheapest is Kingston technology Compact flash card 512MB RETAIL at $98.50.

And all I did was spend $4 on 2 MD.

as for the http://www.soundexpert.info/default.jsp site, there isnt any ATRAC on there? unless you're talking about "ra8 - RealAudio 8 (CBR) with ATRAC 3 for 105 kb/s" ? In which case, LP2 is 132kbps, not 105

[djvibe]

1. Is that correct? Thought everything on the MD was ATRAC format. So you're not really putting a mp3, ogg or wma file on there, you're converting it to ATRAC format. In that case you can do that with any mp3 player.

-I just meant music in general. you can put any sort of *sound* on an MD player, so you´re not limited to any format. with an MP3 player, it has to be MP3. true, you can convert it to mp3, but that would mean decoding the original file (which with formats like real player and quicktime is hard to do) and then re encode it to MP3. With MD you use a line out from your computer.

2. Long as MD players use MD and have moving parts they'll never be as small as the smallest mp3 ss players.

-True, but how small do you want something? Personally, past any certain size the buttons become too inconvenient to use properly. This fits in my pocket and I can access the buttons easily. plus, it doesn´t get lost :) As for it being mechanical, I think that´s a stupid argument, the connections and buttons break before the optical mechanics do, I bet an MP3 player will last as long as an MD player will.


3. Can't argue with you there, course your 2 hours/day x 2 weeks = only 14 hours, comparable with mp3 ss players.

Actually mine lasts over 45 hours on one charge on a gumpack battery...not 14.

4. Can't argue against that, but as memory becomes cheaper that's not going to be much of an arguement. 512megs of compactflash is now less than $100, which will hold ~8.5 hours of mp3s, much more wma. In a year it'll be half that, and probably a quarter the price in two years. I suppose you could always use that reason for MD players though, no matter how cheap memory becomes.

-right, but we´re talking about now. today. I can argue that MD players in two years will last 600 hours on one charge, will record 9 gigs on one disc and cost $50. After all, 2 years ago no one would´ve guessed you could now record to MD at 64X, the battery would last 110 hours on one charge, media would be down to less than $2, you could fit over 5 hours on one MD and players would only be a bit larger than an MD.


5. MP3 SS players don't skip.

Neither do MD players. that was my point.

[beagleguy]

Originally posted by Archon
Im at a loss for that graph, its weird...

but anyways, MDs are $2 each now, and they hold 160 minutes. and most units are $150 now, in the American market, atleast.

So, a DMB CD is 1:10:15, and 67mb, so thats about 2 DMB CDs on 1 MD for $2, which is 134mb... so uhh... unless u wanna take some songs out, you need a 256mb card for it, which according to this graph is.... bah I have no clue, lets ask newegg...Sandisk Secure Digital 256MB Card, Model SDSDB-256-781 RetailThe , $72.00...

Anyways, to your 512mb argument, a SimpleTech 512MB Secure Digital Card (SD Card) -Model STI-SD/512 Retail is $299.00. And sinec CF cards are cheap, I'll throw that in as well... Newegg's cheapest is Kingston technology Compact flash card 512MB RETAIL at $98.50.

And all I did was spend $4 on 2 MD.

as for the http://www.soundexpert.info/default.jsp site, there isnt any ATRAC on there? unless you're talking about "ra8 - RealAudio 8 (CBR) with ATRAC 3 for 105 kb/s" ? In which case, LP2 is 132kbps, not 105

You're correct: LP2 is 132, and LP4 is 66
http://www.minidisc.org/mdlpfaq.html#_q65

So if 105 is inferior to wma, then 66 should be vastly inferior, which is why I find it funny you said "and all I did was spend $4 on 2 MD" since that would only equal 512+ minutes if you used the vastly inferior sound quality of LP4.

Isn't the main arguement for MiniDisc the excellent sound quality? So why does everyone use LP4 in their examples?

You're also quoting the wrong cards: try sticking to just CF, since it is the cheapest and many mp3/wma/etc players use them.

Anyway here's where I got my "$80":
74 min x 20 MD = 1480 minutes
1480 min / 512meg = 2.89
2.89 x $100 = $289 for CF cards
$289 + $149 = $438

$299 MD player + 20 discs @ $3 each = $359

Course this is using their numbers, but you're right, MD players don't cost $300 anymore, MP3 players aren't $150, and all the memory prices are wrong.

They should really redo that graph, but that'd make the price difference much closer, not the $3500 they're trying to claim.

Those MD sites like http://www.t-station.net/ (http://www.t-station.net/ ) should be ashamed of themselves, spreading disinformation to further their own agenda. I understand putting a positive spin on something, but they're straight up lying.

[beagleguy]

Originally posted by djvibe
-I just meant music in general. you can put any sort of *sound* on an MD player, so you´re not limited to any format. with an MP3 player, it has to be MP3. true, you can convert it to mp3, but that would mean decoding the original file (which with formats like real player and quicktime is hard to do) and then re encode it to MP3. With MD you use a line out from your computer.


line out? Do you mean the audio line out? Doesn't that add audio artifacts since it's analogy and not digital transfer? And if it's the audio line out then that means you'd have to record in real time, which would take *forever* to transfer just one CD, while mp3/wma players transfer a CD in mp3/wma in about a minute.


Originally posted by djvibe
-True, but how small do you want something?


Oh jeez, I don't even want to touch that. That's like saying how fast do you want your car to be, how much memory does a computer really need, how many girls does a guy really need, etc. I suppose if they made mp3 players the size of a grain of sand that'd be a bit too small, but otherwise sky's the limit.


Originally posted by djvibe
3. Can't argue with you there, course your 2 hours/day x 2 weeks = only 14 hours, comparable with mp3 ss players.

Actually mine lasts over 45 hours on one charge on a gumpack battery...not 14.


ok.....? First you said you use it 2 hours a day and it lasts about 2 weeks, now it lasts 45 hours? Which is it?



Originally posted by djvibe
4. Can't argue against that, but as memory becomes cheaper that's not going to be much of an arguement. 512megs of compactflash is now less than $100, which will hold ~8.5 hours of mp3s, much more wma. In a year it'll be half that, and probably a quarter the price in two years. I suppose you could always use that reason for MD players though, no matter how cheap memory becomes.

-right, but we´re talking about now. today. I can argue that MD players in two years will last 600 hours on one charge, will record 9 gigs on one disc and cost $50. After all, 2 years ago no one would´ve guessed you could now record to MD at 64X, the battery would last 110 hours on one charge, media would be down to less than $2, you could fit over 5 hours on one MD and players would only be a bit larger than an MD.


Course you'll need a new MD player and new media; I won't. What do you do with your old discs? Transfer everything to the new media? What will that require?

Originally posted by djvibe
5. MP3 SS players don't skip.

Neither do MD players. that was my point.

Actually MD players do skip, but it is physically impossible for a MP3 SS player to skip.

[neuroking]

point is he's beating a dead horse... no, it's worse than that: the horse has been dead for years, and he's still beating it. I can't count how many MD vs mp3 CD player vs MP3 SS articles have I read over the years, and like I said every time the argument for MD get's weaker, with memory getting cheaper, CD burners showing up in more PCs, and mp3 CD players getting cheaper, but MD doesn't change, the player and media prices are nearly unchanged.

I know, that's why I mentioned that slightly tweaked topic of the UMD, and said something along the lines of "this wasn't the best DT topic". This is jsut an update on an old old debate, and the evidence has moved on to make MDs look even more ridiculous.

If some of the people want to support the admin no matter what he says then that's their problem. I think for myself, and if I don't like the admin's opinion I'll tell him.

It's not that. It's the idea that ppl feel they can let loose just because the net is anonymous. Hell, I'm arguing with the him too, even through the drunken slightly insulting posts, but we're keeping it civil. You got a little nasty, which was all I was disapproving of. But you later posts got back on topic.

and should I care if people take my side? So far the only people I've upset are Archon and joelflange, pro-MD people, why am I not surprised they don't like my opposing position?

Hey, everyone needs to be loved... lol! :rotfl

Besides, Archon said somehow he can persuade people in person to support MD but can't persuade us (that makes a lot of sense, guess facial features and hand gestures make all the difference) and joelflange said "lastly, as MD also plays mp3 files, it can also record in real time thus achieving superior sound quality. " which is obviously wrong, so I made fun of his statement, and so he's mad at me.

Hey I did too. It was a silly statement. That's like saying I run faster than a car because I have legs.

Brandon

[neuroking]

-I just meant music in general. you can put any sort of *sound* on an MD player, so you´re not limited to any format. with an MP3 player, it has to be MP3. true, you can convert it to mp3, but that would mean decoding the original file (which with formats like real player and quicktime is hard to do) and then re encode it to MP3. With MD you use a line out from your computer.

Almost none of the mp3 players on the market are solely mp3. And I'm not sure how popular Realaudio and QT are for sound formats (I know Real is a big 'player', but mostly for online store smaples), but I NEVER EVER EVER download anything Real format. I can't stand the computer hijacking they do with their players. I like QT, but I thought they really just used mp3. The QT audio 'format' is not a widely used format at all. And since you need a computer to play mp3s, you can record anything from a computer's sound in port. Encoding audio is extremely easy, actually. Check out EZ CD-DA Extractor and File Converter. Literally 3 clicks. And you have it forever. And can transfer it in <10% time it takes to record it on an MD. I think what ppl are forgetting is that MDs RECORD, MP3s are TRANSFERRED. I think if we all used that terminology, it would clear some of this up.

2. Long as MD players use MD and have moving parts they'll never be as small as the smallest mp3 ss players.

-True, but how small do you want something? Personally, past any certain size the buttons become too inconvenient to use properly. This fits in my pocket and I can access the buttons easily. plus, it doesn´t get lost As for it being mechanical, I think that´s a stupid argument, the connections and buttons break before the optical mechanics do, I bet an MP3 player will last as long as an MD player will.

Someone made the argument that MDs are more convienent than MP3 CD players becasue they are smaller. You're now saying size isn't a big issue. Obviouslly ppl don't agree on this. All anyone can say is 'big enought that it can be used, small enough that it is easy to carry.'. And moving parts is an excellent argument. The mechanism that rotates the disc will die long before any piece on a SS MP3 player. Someone else made the argument about HD MP3 players being bad for jogging, since they can damage the plates, even though they are 'portable' players. When jogging, I would avoid using anything with moving parts, CDs, MDs, HDs, etc.

Actually mine lasts over 45 hours on one charge on a gumpack battery...not 14.

MDs do win the battery life crown, but while i know that longer is better (no pun intended), there's the issue of recharging habits. I almost prefer the 8-12 hour variety devices. I've gotten into the habit of recharging my cell, pda, camera, mp3 players all at the end of the day. 45 hours is great. i wish everything else lasted that long, but since they can't it doesn't bother me to recharge another thing.

right, but we´re talking about now. today. I can argue that MD players in two years will last 600 hours on one charge, will record 9 gigs on one disc and cost $50. After all, 2 years ago no one would´ve guessed you could now record to MD at 64X, the battery would last 110 hours on one charge, media would be down to less than $2, you could fit over 5 hours on one MD and players would only be a bit larger than an MD.

But by then there will be an mp5, and 1 TB SM cards that will made MDs look even more ridiculous. that is, if there isn't a pervasive wireless internet conenction that will allow yo to stream anything on your 20 TB HD.

5. MP3 SS players don't skip.
Neither do MD players. that was my point.

I've made an MD player skip. It was a while ago, so maybe they improved it. Hold it upright and rotate your wrist back and forth for 45 seconds. Not very 'real world' but still not the greatest.

Those MD sites like http://www.t-station.net/ should be ashamed of themselves, spreading disinformation to further their own agenda. I understand putting a positive spin on something, but they're straight up lying.

I love how t-station uses the drawbacks to mp3 as "All editing operations have to be done through computers. Cannot be personalized; Sound quality is not standardized." First point true-ish. Did I miss something? Can you apply a flange filter on an MD player? No? Then it's not editing! Second point, what does 'personalized mean? I can make playlists for my SS MP3 player, and on my MP3 cd player. Standardized? As in MP3s are more customizable for use in different applications? Thought so.

Overall though, ATRAC do have superior quality to MP3s at almost any bitrate, but so few can be kept on an MD, might as well just listen to the CD. And battery life is better for MDs, but we're not talking 100 hours vs 3 hours.

I dunno, bored of this thread. Nothing has even peaked my interest in MDs in the whole thread. Sounds like a slightly nicer tape player, that's all. MP3s are a revolution in music. Any device that does not support them seems behind the times.

Brandon

[Archon]

Originally posted by beagleguy


You're correct: LP2 is 132, and LP4 is 66
http://www.minidisc.org/mdlpfaq.html#_q65

So if 105 is inferior to wma, then 66 should be vastly inferior, which is why I find it funny you said "and all I did was spend $4 on 2 MD" since that would only equal 512+ minutes if you used the vastly inferior sound quality of LP4.

I use LP2 as my examples, LP4 is 320 minutes. LP2 is 160.

[djvibe]

-line out? Do you mean the audio line out? Doesn't that add audio artifacts since it's analogy and not digital transfer?

Yes, line out. No, doesn´t have to be analog. can be Coaxial or optical.

-That's like saying how fast do you want your car to be, how much memory does a computer really need, how many girls does a guy really need, etc

No, not really. There´s small enough to be practical and fit in your pocket, and there´s too small. The archos jukebox is a bit too big to fit in one´s pocket. An MP3 CD player is too big to fit in one´s pocket. An MD player is not too big to fit in one´s pocket.

-ok.....? First you said you use it 2 hours a day and it lasts about 2 weeks, now it lasts 45 hours? Which is it?

45.

-Course you'll need a new MD player and new media; I won't.

-sigh- yes you will. let´s see how far a 128MB mp3 player gets you in 4 years.

-Actually MD players do skip, but it is physically impossible for a MP3 SS player to skip.

It is *possible* for MD players to skip...doesn´t mean they do under regular or even heavy use. Give me a hammer I´ll make your mp3 player skip :)

[joelflange]

I fix computers.

A client of mine called me over to see what I could do for his
\Neo Jukebox MP3 Player.

http://www.ssiamerica.com/products/neojukebox/index.shtml

As it's Hard Drive had crashed I told him that I could replace it's hard drive.

This did not make him happy as he lost over three thousand songs plus an assload of data.

ooops.

[Ioman]

Originally posted by joelflange
I fix computers.

A client of mine called me over to see what I could do for his
\Neo Jukebox MP3 Player.

http://www.ssiamerica.com/products/neojukebox/index.shtml

As it's Hard Drive had crashed I told him that I could replace it's hard drive.

This did not make him happy as he lost over three thousand songs plus an assload of data.

ooops.

He should have backed them up to his computer. Is this story made up!?;)

[Archon]

Im sure they were all backedup on his PC, but thats still several thousand songs he lossed and would have to reorganize/upload

[joelflange]

A. They were not backed up to his pc.

B. He was pissed.

C. This story is true.

D. The error message the neo gave was "Can not find fat 32 or fat 16 partition.

E. I don't know wwhy it is so hard to believe that this sort of thing would be made up as hard drives crash all the time.

joel flange,

pc repair tech

[Archon]

Originally posted by joelflange
A. They were not backed up to his pc.

hah, what an idiot

[llbbl]

Originally posted by Archon
you jerk! u used my 2am, eyes with allergies, self photo!

Ahh so that's what you look like =D

[Archon]

no, it isnt! :)

[beagleguy]

Originally posted by djvibe
-Course you'll need a new MD player and new media; I won't.

-sigh- yes you will. let´s see how far a 128MB mp3 player gets you in 4 years.


Actually no, I won't. My mp3 player has no internal memory, it uses CF cards, so as long as they make CF cards using the same format sky's the limit. Last year I read they were making 2gig CF type I cards:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0211/02111901pretec3gb.asp
so I could upgrade to 2gig if I wished. Over 33 hours @ 1mB/min...

Even if it *did* have 128meg internal, how does that prevent me from purchasing more memory for the external memory slot?

Originally posted by djvibe
Give me a hammer I´ll make your mp3 player skip :)


well now you're just getting silly.

[neuroking]

Originally posted by joelflange
A. They were not backed up to his pc.

B. He was pissed.

C. This story is true.

D. The error message the neo gave was "Can not find fat 32 or fat 16 partition.

E. I don't know wwhy it is so hard to believe that this sort of thing would be made up as hard drives crash all the time.

joel flange,

pc repair tech

I don't see what the big deal is. That's like saying no one should use a laptop becasue they can drop it. So? Be responsible. That's a good amount of CDs to back up to, but recovery would just be several swaps and done. If he had a DVD burner, even easier. Like no one ever drops an MD.

And the NEO was known for shotty quality. I never saw a favorable review besides "Eh, at least it is the first of it's kind".

Weirdos. All y'alls.
Brandon

[beagleguy]

Originally posted by joelflange
I fix computers.

A client of mine called me over to see what I could do for his
\Neo Jukebox MP3 Player.

http://www.ssiamerica.com/products/neojukebox/index.shtml

As it's Hard Drive had crashed I told him that I could replace it's hard drive.

This did not make him happy as he lost over three thousand songs plus an assload of data.