War with Iraq: who pays?

[ruri]

I heard on the radio at work this morning that a war with Iraq will cost in the neighborhood of $200 billions, in addition to the $250 billions we spent every year on defense. A Tomahawk cruise missile costs a cool $1 million each, as an example.

So the question I had was who is going to pay for that?

With the $1.5 trillions tax-cut, a stagnant (or even recession) economy and the homeland security cost, I wanted to know how Bush & company planned to pay for all of this?

My guess is he'll just spend whatever it takes to wage his little war, and let the next generation, MY generation, foot the bill.

Here's a sobbering set of statistics for all of you:

Last year, we paid $332 billion in interest payments on our $6.2 trillion deficit. That's just interest payment alone!

14 cents out of every $1 in tax is used to service the interest payment.

The interest payment accounts for more spending than the Department of Defense budget. It is greater than the Department of Agriculture, Energy and Education combined. As a spending item, it is only 2nd to Heatlh & Human Services.

source: http://www.federalbudget.com/

It has been estimated that with this war and the way the economy is going, by 2010, 1 out of every 5 cents in tax will be needed to pay the interest payments.

To me, that cost is a greater threat to America's way of life than any terrorists organization.

I'm all for going to war if the cause is just, but I also wanted to know who's going to pay for it.

I proposed that the government imposed a war tax to pay for the war. THEN we'll see how much Americans support the effort.

[ECA]

Want more Stats...
WWI we rebuilt most the major cities and GAVE most of the Europen countries money to rebuild...WHY?
WWII....SAME thing... Including Japan and a few of the pacific Islands. WHY?

These were considered Loans..
Only one country has ever paid us back.

NOW out your info, WHERE has all the Debt come from. Our government wont tell us. WHY??

In the Ideal of DEBT... WE dont owe no body, and they dont OWE us. There is NO Debt. The problem they cal this DEBT, is that the government BORROWS for one source or another(from inside the government it self, Social sec. is one source) to pay for another section of Governement. Another problem is that the RICH people in our Government dont have knowledge of BASIC buying. What would you pay for a Hammer. $10-30 Right? They pay $200-2000 for the SAME hammer. WHY??
The FBI, recently did a Resource invantory. They hadnt looked to see what they had in materials for over 5 years. They found they had LOST 300 laptops. NOW, think, 300 laptops, NOT the cheap ones, Not the ones with basic software.. Probably about $5000-7000 EACH($1,500,000-2,100,000)... WHAT company do you know of, would let this happen. To loose 300 laptops, And not do an invantory of there location for 5 YEARS.
Lets look at it another way... What is the cost of living in Wash. DC.... BARE living is $100,000. And I dont know many living at that level, that WORK in the area of Wash. DC. Average wage for MOST is $140k-200k and that AINT upper management.

[llbbl]

I think it is time we cut our losses and GTFO of Iraq. Bush needs to wake to the anti-american sentiment spreading through that country everyday we still have a major force in THEIR country.

A senior Iraqi oil ministry official is gunned down in Baghdad. Insurgents have stepped up attacks since an interim Iraqi government was installed. Despite the violence, Iraqi and U.S. officials say the country is making progress in the rebuilding process.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4657678

He should have just left the country in chaos and let them figure it out for themselves. Any progress we are appearing to make at this point is just counter productive. How much longer will we have our army in Iraq? Well at least another 3 years. Let us all pray for the American people to have some sense in the next election.

[llbbl]

Lets send some more republicans to fight and die in this stupid war, that way there will be less of them to vote! It is like the Christian right is on some holy war the way they have all have mobilized and supported the commander and chief. If this country is to survive we need to work on being more inclusive of other religions.

The Pentagon was made aware three years ago that US personnel might have been desecrating or mishandling Korans at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp in Cuba, the International Committee of the Red Cross says.

Credible information on the issue had been given to the Pentagon in confidential reports in 2002 and early 2003, Simon Schorno, a Red Cross spokesman, said. Representatives of the Red Cross, who have played a key role in investigating abuse allegations at Guantanamo Bay and other US military prisons, had never witnessed such incidents first-hand during visits, but Red Cross delegates had gathered and corroborated enough similar, independent reports from detainees to raise the issue several times with Guantanamo commanders and with Pentagon officials, Mr Schorno said on Wednesday.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Red-Cross-backs-claims-of-Koran-abuse-in-US-prison-camp/2005/05/19/1116361678341.html?oneclick=true

The fact that The United States has a negative image in the Muslim world is no surprise. Whether one agrees with the war in Iraq or not, the perception of America as imperialist and arrogant is unavoidable. The media in our country works as an important conduit in disseminating news about the war and usually reports in an impartial and objective manner. The current controversy regarding Newsweek’s error concerning Koran abuse is an anomaly and should be treated as such. Not as an excuse for the administration to pressure independent media to toe the government line.

http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=3985

[ECA]

I would like the Major Gov players to NOT get any wages until the war is over...LET them pay for what they started..

[brianj]

Lets send some more republicans to fight and die in this stupid war, that way there will be less of them to vote! It is like the Christian right is on some holy war the way they have all have mobilized and supported the commander and chief. If this country is to survive we need to work on being more inclusive of other religions.

Well, I'm a republican and also fought in the 1st Iraqi war (Desert Storm vet)...sorry I didn't die TG, I'll try better next time :slap ...just remember it is the republicans..and democrats who died to make it possible for you to say that online without the threat of someone from the government busting into your house and putting a bullet in your head -- like in Iraq. Freedom is never free, and we in the United States are willing to pay the price so other less fortunate people in foreign countries may experience this.

I guess when the World Trade Center was bombed we should have just curled up into a corner and cried ourselves to sleep, praying that the 'bad man' would go away. The we could all go ito couseling and discuss it, writing letters to those responsible saying we forgave them.

Turning the other cheek only works in fairy tales. Usually what happens is you get kicked in the balls when expecting the second slap in the face. I usually don't say **** about all the republican bashing on this forum, but it's getting pretty old.

[ECA]

Ahhh, I like that..
But,
Why did we have to go to War in Iraq this time?? There wasnt anything going on.

Do you know what lead upto the bombings in the US, and why they did them in the first place?? I dont think they TOLD you what happened to cause it.

The Afghans were BACKED by the US, in there fight with Russia. For 10 years we helped them with 1 promise. That when it was over, we would help rebuild. Can you guess who was in office when they ASKED us to rebuild?? Bush Senior.
Can you guess his answer, even tho the russian Governmant had fallen? he said NO!

for the cost of rebuilding 1- 3rd world nation we went to War..
Then some ODD-BALL said that Iraq Again, had weapons of MASS destruction..
And with a few pictures, and NO PROOF. We then continued into another nation.

This is funny as we setup Marcos, and 90% of the Governments in the pacific, and even a cuban dictator and aint done SQUAT to help those people against what WE DID.

Its like the worries of N. Vietnam..
I AINT worried about the nukes, I worry about ICBM's(intercontinental balistic missles).
Nukes are easy, and 1/2 the middle east has them.. Its if they can REACH us, I worry about.
I HOPE that any international airport SHOULD be able to detect a Nuke device going threw there gates.
It would also be nice if EVERY international airport and border, have an international listing of Visa's and passports. I wouldnt let ANYTHING/anyone land that didnt.
such an easy fix for an OLd problem.

[VeX]

Freedom is never free, and we in the United States are willing to pay the price so other less fortunate people in foreign countries may experience this.
HAhahaha! This really made me laugh!! You actually want to say that USA fougth the war for the well-being of people in Iraq!?! And not for that black fossil fuel called OIL!?!? HA! That's a off-the-scale hipocricy!! :censored


I guess when the World Trade Center was bombed we should have just curled up into a corner and cried ourselves to sleep, praying that the 'bad man' would go away. The we could all go ito couseling and discuss it, writing letters to those responsible saying we forgave them.

Turning the other cheek only works in fairy tales. Usually what happens is you get kicked in the balls when expecting the second slap in the face. I usually don't say **** about all the republican bashing on this forum, but it's getting pretty old.

I don't know about the WTC, but it has been proven that AMericans crashed the plane on Pentagon themselves just as an excuse so they could bomb Afganistan!

[ECA]

If you REALLY look at it...what did Iraqs leader do...
He kept the religious fanatics OUT.
WE opened a VOID, and it is NOW trying to be filled by NUTS, who want that country for there OWN purposes. Mostly to wage war on US/WE.
So what he was a PAIN. He was also a STOP-GAP for those who wanted another RELIGIOUS state. If some religious NUT gets in there, it will be a massacre of all the other religions there.
another
Saudi arabia
chetnia(sp)
Afghanistan
sudan
and others...

[brianj]

HAhahaha! This really made me laugh!! You actually want to say that USA fougth the war for the well-being of people in Iraq!?! And not for that black fossil fuel called OIL!?!? HA! That's a off-the-scale hipocricy!! :censored

I'm glad that you find the expendeture of American lives and my duty to my country laughable, VeX. Maybe you are right. Maybe we SHOULD start just plowing into these smaller middle east countries and raping them of all their resources. We certainly have the power to do so, and at least then we would deserve the publicity from it - while sitting back and drinking from golden cups instead of trying to establish a Democratic state. It's not that we are trying to establish DEMOCRACY, for that is just a word. It's what Democracy stands for - freedom. You know what that is, right? Being that your country wasn't exactly rainbows and cupcakes in the past.


I don't know about the WTC, but it has been proven that AMericans crashed the plane on Pentagon themselves just as an excuse so they could bomb Afganistan!

You need to get with that idiot who kept saying we weren't in Baghdad's city limits while you saw tanks rolling in the background...Yer both on the same wavelength. This has got to be second dumbess suggestion I have heard in regards to the war since it started.

This is what I think America should do:

1) Seal our borders. Screw the world. You want top-notch medical or industrial training? Tuff ****...go someplace else. Your not welcome. This also pertains to flights and ships into/out of the country. Exceptions perhaps going to our allies who have stood shoulder to shoulder with us. Australia and the UK come to mind at the top of the list (forgive me if I don't mention the others....you know who you are, and we appreciate your support).

2) Deport ALL non-nationals (may need to take #1 into consideration on a case by case basis on this one as well). On a Visa here? Not any more! See ya.

3) Keep our noses out of all future world problems so that all the left wing liberals have nothing to ***** about any more (Ya, I'm sure they can find something else). What? Your dictator is gassing your people? Dissentary and disease running rampant in your country? Need medical/food/clean water/money to rebuild? Tough...not our problem. The money we save could be placed into alternative fuel sources like sunflower oil or windmills or whatever.

4) Cut off all trade with the outside world. This includes exporting as well as importing. Believe me, the outside world (ie - YOU VeX) needs us MUCH more than we need another Dollar Store item - I never did like the prizes inside of the Cracker Jack boxes to begin with, even when I was a little kid.

Ya, maybe we bit off more than we could chew acting like the 'World Police' and sh1t, but SOMEONE needed to do it and obviously the US is the only one with balls big enough (or actually cared enough) to take it on. So I will close my post with one word..

'whatever'

:soapbox

[ECA]

no,
I appreciate what the mil, is doing..but not the reasons the Gov is doing it.
I believe we should clean HOUSE before we go off and shoot someone else.

[ECA]

want the truth...?
if we cant compete, DONT...
theres ALOT we can do to compete...
1. those on TOP, CEO, IFO, what ever, can cut wages from the TOP...they wont.
2. We have MORE profits from IMPORTS(because we have taxes, and CEO's to pay) then we do from EXPORTS(they wont pay those CEO').
Who gets the money? Not the farmer or the maker, but the middle man.
3. let us choose our battles..Why fight for the RIGHT, if its only for oil, and major companies...why not Tibet?

[Ioman]

I love Brian's response.

Leave it to Tecknogeek to get everyone rilled up.

I think it goes to show how people in other countries view the United States. It also sounds like there are a lot of lies floating around about our country and our political agenda.

[LisaJ]

[QUOTE=brianj]Well, I'm a republican and also fought in the 1st Iraqi war (Desert Storm vet)...sorry I didn't die


Im glad you didn't die either or I would have to kill you anyways.. :)

I do not think we should develop new sunflower oil--just yet-- :doh

How about we get everyone enough food, income, medical insurance, car insurance, basically enough education, decent paying jobs..IN THE United States..wait lets make it so no one is homeless too - no matter what. :dunno

[brianj]

Im glad you didn't die either or I would have to kill you anyways.. :)

Thanks :D

[Ioman]

oooh I can feel their love even in here....how cute!

[brianj]

oooh I can feel their love even in here....how cute!

:thumb That's my girl!

[VeX]

I'm glad that you find the expendeture of American lives and my duty to my country laughable, VeX. Maybe you are right. Maybe we SHOULD start just plowing into these smaller middle east countries and raping them of all their resources. We certainly have the power to do so, and at least then we would deserve the publicity from it - while sitting back and drinking from golden cups instead of trying to establish a Democratic state. It's not that we are trying to establish DEMOCRACY, for that is just a word. It's what Democracy stands for - freedom. You know what that is, right? Being that your country wasn't exactly rainbows and cupcakes in the past.

Wow, nice little bunch of crap you wrote there!
You say you want to establish democracy in midlle eastern countries. So I'll ask you, why the hell you have to put your noses in others countries buissnes anyway!? And something else, how would you feel, a republican and probably a christian, if, let's say, Iraq was most powerfull country on earth, and they come marching in USA, becouse they don't like your government or something, and started to convert you to Islam and try to establish Sheriat society?? Because that's exactly what you are doing to them! You arn't helping them, you are forcing them to live a life style that isn't their own!!
And you say my country wasn't exactly rainbows and cupcakes in the past? You know who started the war in 1992? America did!! You know why? Because Yugoslavia was a wery powerful comunist country, and Josip Broz Tito was an extremely charismatic person, and you were scared sh*tless! When he died, America was relieved, and they started to turn countries inside Yugoslavia against each other! And finaly you got what you wanted, Yougoslavia broke down and the threat was eliminated.



You need to get with that idiot who kept saying we weren't in Baghdad's city limits while you saw tanks rolling in the background...Yer both on the same wavelength. This has got to be second dumbess suggestion I have heard in regards to the war since it started.
I didn't make that up. There's no plane debree near pentagon, and some scientist say, that damage done to pentagon is from an explosive device, and not the plane. And, you know that really isn't the "second dumbess" conspiracy theory. Want to know the first? Well, some freaks, and scientists and professional pilots have the greatest conspiracy theory ever! I don't belive it, tough. It goes like this: America bombed WTC themselves!!!! Now, i don't want to go into detailes, but professional pilots say that it was impossible for afghan people to learn how to drive that plane on a simulator that good. And that it is extremely hard even for professionals with over 30 years of experience to cras into a tower of that size. And that wasn't one plane. There were two.

This is what I think America should do:

1) Seal our borders. Screw the world. You want top-notch medical or industrial training? Tuff ****...go someplace else. Your not welcome. This also pertains to flights and ships into/out of the country. Exceptions perhaps going to our allies who have stood shoulder to shoulder with us. Australia and the UK come to mind at the top of the list (forgive me if I don't mention the others....you know who you are, and we appreciate your support).

2) Deport ALL non-nationals (may need to take #1 into consideration on a case by case basis on this one as well). On a Visa here? Not any more! See ya.

3) Keep our noses out of all future world problems so that all the left wing liberals have nothing to ***** about any more (Ya, I'm sure they can find something else). What? Your dictator is gassing your people? Dissentary and disease running rampant in your country? Need medical/food/clean water/money to rebuild? Tough...not our problem. The money we save could be placed into alternative fuel sources like sunflower oil or windmills or whatever.

4) Cut off all trade with the outside world. This includes exporting as well as importing. Believe me, the outside world (ie - YOU VeX) needs us MUCH more than we need another Dollar Store item - I never did like the prizes inside of the Cracker Jack boxes to begin with, even when I was a little kid.

Ya, maybe we bit off more than we could chew acting like the 'World Police' and sh1t, but SOMEONE needed to do it and obviously the US is the only one with balls big enough (or actually cared enough) to take it on. So I will close my post with one word..

'whatever'

:soapbox

And want some more crazy conspiracy theories???
Well, you know how Thailand and some neighbouring countries are the most powerful exporters of chicken meat and eggs. They have lower prices than those of american chicken meat. So the USA started importing chickens from thailand. And then, accidentally, few months later, the Chicken flu started rampaging through Thailand. Now, it is certain that americans have the technology to produce geneticaly altered flu virus. SO, you didn't have anything to do with it? No, ofcourse you didn't because good ol America yust goes around helping people, they would never anything so terrible like that!!

And Bush started freaking out becuse some idiot made up that Iraq has chemical, biological, nuclear weapons (well, it's strange that you didn't say they have foton torpedos or something...).SO WHAT!!!?? USA has all those weapons enugh to destroy the world! But they were scared of Iraq. So their personal agenda was to "destroy those weapons". Actually they wanted to Americanize the Iraq, take the oil, fund their companies, build military bases...
And america was the only one who could take profit from destroying Iraq, the balls didn't have anything to do with it.
And to conclude my post. Your time is up!! People around the world will soon stop to need america completely. You don't make any products that some other countries don't or couldn't make. I belive that 21st century will be marked with the rule of far eastern countries like China, Japan, and Korea. Computers? We can get htem from Japan. Software? MAny countries, far lower prices. Cars? Korea, Japan, Germany, Italy. All the other gadgets? Well, China mostly, and everything today is actually made in China. Digital cameras, mp3 players, pdas, mouse, keyboard, everithing is made in China!
So, I guess, the world doesn't need america any more. Tough luck!!

Now please, don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against american people, all you guys and gals are great, but if you can't see that that what your government is doing is wrong and doesn't fight for the causes you belive, then something isn't right with you.
The things brianj wrote, well, that is really nobel cause, and if everybody was like him, this world would be a far bether place! But i'm afraid the government doesn't care for that, only thing they want is power. This is a point of view in many european countries...

[llbbl]

I love Brian's response.

Leave it to Tecknogeek to get everyone rilled up.

I think it goes to show how people in other countries view the United States. It also sounds like there are a lot of lies floating around about our country and our political agenda.

woohoo Debate!!

Well, I'm a republican and also fought in the 1st Iraqi war (Desert Storm vet)...sorry I didn't die TG, I'll try better next time ...just remember it is the republicans..and democrats who died to make it possible for you to say that online without the threat of someone from the government busting into your house and putting a bullet in your head -- like in Iraq. Freedom is never free, and we in the United States are willing to pay the price so other less fortunate people in foreign countries may experience this.

The only reason we are in Iraq is because Bush is a moron who is too strongly tied in with the Oil Companies. We should have elected a president who had more common sense then our casualties wouldn't be so high. Even if Iraq starts producing Oil in 5-10 years we would still be screwed in about 200 years so we better start working on an alternative fuel supply. The war is pointless. We are spending billions of dollars that should be spent else where because the investment in Iraq isn't going to pay off.


I guess when the World Trade Center was bombed we should have just curled up into a corner and cried ourselves to sleep, praying that the 'bad man' would go away. The we could all go ito couseling and discuss it, writing letters to those responsible saying we forgave them.

Yea too bad there aren't any WMD's in Iraq like Bush thought there was. Too bad Iraq had nothing to do with the bombing of WTC. Too bad Bush is too much of a pawn to have analyzied the situation and been able to see for himself that overthrowing Sadam and trying to push Democracy down their throats wether they like it or not isn't going to stabalize the Middle East.

Ya, maybe we bit off more than we could chew acting like the 'World Police' and sh1t, but SOMEONE needed to do it and obviously the US is the only one with balls big enough (or actually cared enough) to take it on. So I will close my post with one word..

Yea its called the United Nations.

I don't know about the WTC, but it has been proven that AMericans crashed the plane on Pentagon themselves just as an excuse so they could bomb Afganistan!

I don't think it has been proven, but certainly a possiblity.

1) Seal our borders. Screw the world.

Preventing immigration isn't the answer, better tracking of immigrants and better control of our borders is.

2) Deport ALL non-nationals

Yea, and ... Watch the enconomy take a nose dive; watch research and development go to shiat; watch our lead in technological innovation fall drastically; watch the US turn into a 2nd rate country.


3) Keep our noses out of all future world problems

Working through the UN to solve world problems is the BEST course of action. Unless you like seeing billions of our dollars and thousands of our citizen's lives spent on something with very little payoff other than a good feeling about ourselves.

4) Cut off all trade with the outside world.

This idea isn't very well thought through. How many companies do we have that rely on international goods/services? I bet 100%! It is far too late to stop globalization.


And Bush started freaking out becuse some idiot made up that Iraq has chemical, biological, nuclear weapons (well, it's strange that you didn't say they have foton torpedos or something...).SO WHAT!!!?? USA has all those weapons enugh to destroy the world! But they were scared of Iraq. So their personal agenda was to "destroy those weapons". Actually they wanted to Americanize the Iraq, take the oil, fund their companies, build military bases...
And america was the only one who could take profit from destroying Iraq, the balls didn't have anything to do with it.
And to conclude my post. Your time is up!! People around the world will soon stop to need america completely. You don't make any products that some other countries don't or couldn't make. I belive that 21st century will be marked with the rule of far eastern countries like China, Japan, and Korea. Computers? We can get htem from Japan. Software? MAny countries, far lower prices. Cars? Korea, Japan, Germany, Italy. All the other gadgets? Well, China mostly, and everything today is actually made in China. Digital cameras, mp3 players, pdas, mouse, keyboard, everithing is made in China!
So, I guess, the world doesn't need america any more. Tough luck!!

Well said VeX. We certainly have our work cut out for us if we expect to stay on top for much longer and it certainly isn't going to happen with this president in office.

[ECA]

whats interesting, is we had this conversation before..
we even posted alot of facts,came down to a 60/40 split..
60% on the side we SHOULD not have done this..
40% totally militant, blow there heads off.

are we a gang that follws the STUPID nut that throws the rock at the others??
Or do we think about it before following the NUT, that started it?

Im no Lemming/sheep/ or passerby...
I just want to follow a person that KNOWS what the HELL he is doing..And for a proper cause..

[Ioman]

Wow...you guys are all nuts. It doesn't matter who is right and wrong, no one is right.

Politcal debates always seem to get people worked up and emotional, how is it good for the forum?

[ECA]

then join in or watch the fireworks...
think TG and I have them on the run..

[llbbl]

political debate is necessary for social change.

[ECA]

but that only works if BOTH sides are open minded enough to see the other sides opinion..

[brianj]

Lets send some more republicans to fight and die in this stupid war, that way there will be less of them to vote! It is like the Christian right is on some holy war the way they have all have mobilized and supported the commander and chief.

The original reason why I even entered into this 'debate' was because of TG's cavalier attitude towards the people who give their lives in the military. Being a Republican as well as Gulf War vet, it was a slap in my face. Was my response a knee jerk reaction on my part? Maybe. Will I continue to fan the flames of people who actually, truely believe that the US government is the ones who caused the mayhem of 9/11? No. That would be like arguing that VeX was the one who put the footprint on the moon (Oh, and for all you conspiracy lovers in here....we never landed on the moon. It was all stagged in a Hollywood studio :dunno )

Continue your debate if you wish, but I will no longer be a part of it.

[ECA]

and you do know, that according to UN and geniva convention..That if you dont agree with a unlawful command, you can DENY to do it.

[spankers]

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." --John Ray (1670)
"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it." --George Santayana

Our involvement in Iraq makes me sick to my stomach. Have you guys really thought about the spin that is fed to us on a daily basis?

1. The George W. sentiment: "staying the course". Conducting military operations in a foreign country without a clear exit strategy is the height of stupidity, particularly in Arab countries. From my experience in the Middle East, feelings range from extreme distrust to outright hatred of the United States, and for good cause. Our unconditional support of Israel despite their clear violation of U.N. accords is but one of many misdeeds. With this emotional climate, having U.S. troops in the Middle East long term is just asking for trouble. Can you say "gasoline" and "matches"? In the long run, I believe a long term military presence in Iraq will cause more harm than good. And that leads to:

2. "Winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people". This drivel is pure political spin. Who thought up this and what were they smoking? How would you feel about someone bombing the hell out of your neighborhood and then trying to "win your heart and mind"? I don't know about you but I'd tend to be sympathetic with anyone who blew up the people responsible if my neighborhood got destroyed. Would you take seriously anyone who scorns your culture trying to "win your heart and mind"? I know that in the time I was in the Middle East I began to hate Arab culture... and my attitude was not uncommon.

3. There is a misconception that the U.S. can "bring democracy to the people of Iraq"... or, to paraphrase, "inside every Iraqi there is a good American just waiting to come out". From brianj:Freedom is never free, and we in the United States are willing to pay the price so other less fortunate people in foreign countries may experience this.Did anyone ask the people of Iraq whether or not they wanted democracy? My guess is that they would rather have good food, working utilities, a safe neighborhood, and a decent wage rather than some nebulous "democracy". In my opinion, a democratic government must come from a desire of the people to have that form of government, not forced from the outside. Any change that comes from an external source is pretty much doomed to failure in the long run. Have a look at the history books.

4. Removing Saddam Hussein was a "good thing". How so? Given, Saddam Hussein is a horrible person and the world would be a better place without him. But from what I've read he also maintained control of the disparate factions in Iraq. It took extreme measures to do this. We, as Americans, are fettered with rules that do not allow us to use the measures necessary to maintain control in Iraq. What would Saddam do if he were still in power and had problems with terrorists? My guess would be that he would use fairly stong measures. Perhaps finding out where the offending people lived and making their families, friends, neighbors, and acquaintances wish they were never born? Torture... public execution? By removing Saddam we have created a breeding ground for terrorists.



Lets send some more republicans to fight and die in this stupid war, that way there will be less of them to vote!Technogeek, this is one of the most despicable things I have ever seen posted to this board. By inference, you are advocating the death of men and women in uniform. While you may disagree with the Iraq War (I know I do), you should hold the lives of the men and women in the service with utmost respect. From your post I would have to guess that you have not served in the military. Have you served your country in any other way?
It is like the Christian right is on some holy war the way they have all have mobilized and supported the commander and chief.Your statement makes the assumption that: Republican = Religious Right = Iraq War Supporter. This is not true. I and many of my friends ABSOLUTELY HATE the "religious right" elements in the Republican party and DO NOT believe that the actions taken in Iraq were and are right. I think that the Republican party needs to focus on financial conservatism and improving the economy and leaving the moral issues alone.

Like brianj, I am a Desert Storm Vet and have spent time in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Pakistan, and Egypt. I am a registered Republican and spent ten years in the Navy, four of which detached to the "secret squirrel" community. My political views are fiscally Republican and socially Democrat... i.e., keep a tight rein on the Federal pocketbook but don't try and legislate morality.

[spankers]

Here's an interesting link for those who have not seen it:
http://www.costofwar.com/

[Ioman]

Well said Spankers, I agree with you on this. I wish I could post my views here, but being one of the site owners, I prefer to stay out of such debates, they simply are not a healthy way of interacting with others. I strictly view political views as personal topics and not something I am willing to share with others. And personally, I wish we would keep politics out of the forums.

[ECA]

Good spankers..

But a debate is when both sides listen, and are willing to change.
An Argument is when 1 or both sides WONT change.

Its very confusing when the US, supports Isreal and then Pays money for oil that supports the other side.

Confusing when 90% of the wars of the past were for 1 Place on this planet, and we have the ability to make it an international city at this time. Jerusalem.
No weapons and NO one to live Inside the city.
Any could visit.
No favoritism.
And a Standard UN force to protect and patrol it.

[spankers]

Its very confusing when the US, supports Isreal and then Pays money for oil that supports the other side.The only thing that's confusing is why we have given Israel UNCONDITIONAL support regardless of their actions. Is it due to abundant money given to politicians? Or is this some leftover guilt from the Holocaust due to U.S. lack of action prior to 1939? I don't know.

Buying oil from the Middle East is, for the time being, an economic necessity. There are oil reserves elsewhere but the cost of oil extraction is prohibitive.

[ECA]

Oil extraction isnt prohibitive..
Over half the wells in the US are capped..It wont be released until gas is at LEAST $4 a gallon.
They've been capped sence the 50's when gas was .25 a gallon..

[ECA]

http://www.nigc.org/eia/opec.asp
This is old, but I really dont think theres much change in the lower listings, about World Suppliers.
Do you see a listing for the US..
dont you think we could out produce ENGLAND?? If we wanted to??

[spankers]

I think you're reading this wrong perhaps? The page you referred to is for oil EXPORTS. Actual production figures are a bit different. From the DOE website:U.S. crude production, which averaged 5.4 million bbl/d during the first ten months of 2004, is now at 50-year lows. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html
While comparing production figures and export figures may be like comparing apples and oranges, 5.4 million barrels/day puts us right underneath the Saudi exports.

As the world's largest CONSUMER of energy, the U.S. doesn't EXPORT much oil.

If you read further the DOE website says:The United States contains over 500,000 producing oil wells, the vast majority of which are considered "marginal" or "stripper" wells, generally producing only a few barrels per day of oil.The reason we buy so much oil from the Middle East is because it is cheaper than meeting our energy requirements from domestic resources. Oil companies, like all other corporate animals, are in business and do not operate at a loss.

[spankers]

Here's another site with oil reserves/production/consumption figures for 2001:
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/oil.html

If you'll notice, Canada ranks at #2 in oil reserves... however, much of that oil is in sand and the cost of extracting the oil from sand is more than the market price.

[llbbl]

I support war in the direct defense of our nation, not some bag of lies that GWB came up with to send us to Iraq. I support the armed forces and the people who serve in our military. Those are two true statements. What I said before I said half heartedly and I did not mean it as a personal attack against any republicans who did not vote for GWB in the last two elections, but for the republicans who did you are getting what you deserve in Iraq. If we had voted him out of office we wouldn't still be over there. I saw another 4 years in Iraq and billions of dollars wasted by voting for Bush and was the main reason I choose the person with the best chance of beating him. I think it is a shame that so many people let emotion overcloud their judgement or were duped for whatever other reason into voting for GWB. These people I don't think are so bad as the ones who like Kenneth Lay, Dick Cheney and Rush Limbaugh who willfully decieved the American people into believing in this president. They are the ones who should be held accountable for the thousands of needless deaths. So don't tell me I don't support the armed forces because I for one at least voted correctly in the last election. I support bringing the troops home from Iraq. One more day spent in that country is only doing more harm than good. Let them sort it out for themselves. If we are lucky, a governmental system will come to be that is able to control the people and which doesn't support terrorist actions. Hell giving the entire country to Saudia Arabia would be better than trying to do what we are now.

[ECA]

There is REALLY no way to leave..
Without the country falling into some religious fanatics hands, and being worse off then before, and probably MORE of an enemy...

Unless a STRONG military force can be raised.
"" They have a LEADER they can ALL follow can be found.
A multi religious STATE, cant be run under a single religious dictatorship. Should be based on a NON-religious governing, NO favoritism... THIS wont happen.
As soon as we leave, 1-4 of the religionous Sects is going to POUNCE on that country. And there will be another WAR.. And then there will be Genocide, and we will have to DECIDE to invade AGAIN.