View Full Version : Mentor HSMT-UD headphones
Ioman
11-13-2004, 11:38 AM
http://www.legitreviews.com/article.php?aid=121
Never heard of this brand so I am guessing these are a rip-off of the Zalman based 5.1 headphones by the looks of things.
Just for your info, The LTB Mentor 5.1 Surround sound headphones you speak of are unique, patented and quite a bit better than Zalman. They carry 3 distinct patents as well as alot more range of specs. Zalman does not directly interface to USB and does not decode 5.1 without a preamp or AC97 (three plug connector) maybe thats why Zalman is so much less? (adapters not included!) LTB challanges anyone to claim better True surround sound quality!
http://www.listentobelieve.com (http://)
Thanks for your feedback! :)
neuroking
11-19-2004, 04:02 PM
Gotta love when a site with one headphone review likes a set of cans, yet it's so spectacular, none of teh headphone sites even mention it.
Also gotta love when the manufacturer's marketing department posts to forums without identifying themselves as such.
My guess is that Dolby Headphone technology still reams these, because that was the most luke-warm review I've seen. 2 games tested. No description past "rah rah! hooray!" I'm thinking someone got a free pair for the review (sorry, had to say it!).
JMIL,
Pardon us.. WE PRIDE ourselves on being skeptic of ANYTHING we see.
The Net is full of promise, but also alot of crap.
Fly by night companies that NEVER deliver...PERIOD.
LIFE, and 10,000 options to do the SAME thing, and only 1 really works, and no way to figure which one it is.
We look at other sites and WONDER how much they got paid to write things up, because someone HERE tried it, and it was CRAP.
Its like MOUSE technology.
Its proven, it works, and there STILL crap being placed on the market, EVEN under MS logo's.
NEW tech mice?? Better PROVE it works before i touch one, I WILL NEVER buy new tech until its finished(any more).
I (MYSELF) will stand the LINE, against what is COMING out as NEW, and compare it with the old, and tell you waht is WRONG with the new. And i think those on this site will toll into this also(mostly). It has to be BETTER then the old tech, and NOT take our options away.
Bells and whistles DONT impress me..Function does.
Price dont impress me, as I can find a cheaper way.
Pretty dont impress me, if it DONT WORK, the way i wish.
I would rather buy 1 good mouse then 3-expencive-NEW-Expencive-unproven tech mice, just cause its PRETTY.
I don't need to market what I truly believe in. This really is decent technology. Affordable to more people than the Dolby boys and thier "Virtual" SRS would like you to know about. According to them over 6600 movies and about 600 pc games are made in 5.1. Do most people see the advantages? Hello am I missing something here?
Trust me LTB will prove you wrong. (Maybe this will be a good thing) BTW there are more reviews than this one and so far (Since 11/03) Pretty good ones. THis model is already udated by a newer volume controlled one with a MIC for gaming and 2.4Ghz wifi available too. SeeYa
Ioman
11-19-2004, 11:13 PM
Is SunnyTech the manufacturer? http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=26-159-002&depa=3
I think the box looks pretty cheap although the headphones look like they are built well. 103dB for sensitivity seems high to me, what is normal for a set of cans like these?
I couldn't find anymore reviews on the net, can you please post some for us?
Talk to me..
I LOVE a good debate...
What makes headphones with 4-6 speakers in them WORTH so much money??
MP3, Music CD's, and alot of the stuff is ONLY stereo.
DVD, may be alright, and many games...
But why NOT use a full stereo with 5.1?
Ya, Im picking on ya...But GIVE ppl a reason...
Im from the ERA of positional Quad, music and games...
Show a few pics, and explain the reason for needing all this.
Kinda neet,
but $50 for GREAT headsets??? Will they last more then 30 days..
neuroking
11-20-2004, 01:40 PM
Typical... get bad reviews, then change your name and give a couple away to sites begging for free stuff.... Here they are...
"Well, I'm going to start off with the good, and unfortunately there isn't very much of it."
and EVEN BETTER, for a gaming headphone..
"the headphones are USB-only and therefore eliminate support for positional audio APIs built into your sound card hardware" hahahaha
http://www.fastlanehw.com/reviews.php?i=79&page=1
From Ioman's NewEgg link, the only review contains this:
" I tried "5.1" at first, but Doom3 refused to recognize them. Setting to general "Surround sound" fixed it", which worries me.
Hey, I'm just looking for evidence either way. Very little generally = very bad
AND,
With the current speaker systems that PORT 5.1 from a FIXED single position out LAST year... Its a wonder that you didnt use there Tech, to make these.
I know it's difficult to Not reply to a post. Especially when you have no interest in the topic. But I won't go there, I'm just pleased that there is something. Anyway,
Reviews are coming: http://www.listentobelieve.com/wheretobuy.html
And yes we do get about 3 requests a week! Any advice who you would respect a review from? (Please save the sarcasm) Also yes USB does bypass elaborate 5.1+ sound cards but AC97 does'nt (We have those too!) We also have AC3 and Wireless with Fiber Optic interface for anything else that drives the 5.1 Bus. BTW if Quality is in question, we assemble these on the same MFG line in China as Bose and Siennheiser. I can't speak for them though. (Also the New Egg user was using the older hsmt-ud) New LTB-USB-M Models come with EAX Support Drivers since Creative labs and Microsoft don't share opinions on standards)
Then why didnt you use the Bose system, IDEA.
Its not hard tech...Its a cheap simple Reverberation chamber, such as the Ear cannal..
Mentor sound, is only a REmarketing site.. They take others products and RESELL them under a diff name.. And as much as the product NEW(old tech).
PCRITE is a distributour trying to sell RETAIL... And screw there RESELLERS.
Mentor, seems abit Cheap on there site..
Sysbuilder looks as if they are selling old tech for new also..
Who wants a SPARC II for $12,000...
http://www.listentobelieve.com/aboutproducts.html
SEND us HERE...
And i would like to know, How much you paid to get that DOLBY DIGITAL Seal of approval...
And how about a link to gamers choice, and there writeup.
And Igames..
Yes your comments are contructive... Yet realizing your interest in Dolby technology or Virtual Surround Souround sound as 90% of the industry would use. 10% of us respect the true nature of 6 channel audio. (that's why ac97 was born) I still think Dolby has thier place but we don't subscribe to dolby technology, we don't need to. The web sites selling LTB Headphones are those that have committed to a company without a brand name. Their commitment is our first wave as several non disclosed vendors on the national level are currently in the wings. Listen don't even reply to this if you really feel what LTB is doing is CRAP. Your Honest opinion doesn't have to be an expansion of level of knowledge in this area, we trust you! you know what you know! Please understand we know what we know as well.
THEN:
I KNOW, you cant show those labels without PERMISSION. And meeting certain criteria..
If reported,
they give 1 warning.
Then they SUE.
neuroking
11-23-2004, 06:54 PM
I know it's difficult to Not reply to a post. Especially when you have no interest in the topic. But I won't go there, I'm just pleased that there is something. Anyway,
Reviews are coming: http://www.listentobelieve.com/wheretobuy.html
I know it's hard, especially when you're a moderator and you think someone is trying to get free advertising. Gotta wonder when to delete threads.
And yes we do get about 3 requests a week! Any advice who you would respect a review from? (Please save the sarcasm)
Let's see, the review you listed....
Geek Extreme - I couldn't find ANY other headphone reviews - no Senns, Sony's, or Zalman even. No point of reference, and no history of acceptable headphone reviews. The review is luke warm at best, very little detail was given on soundstage and high/mid/low frequency performance.
PC Extreme - appears not to exist. At least the link and the domain do not laod for me.
Atomic - no link given, just a quote.
Big Bruin - Again, only 1 other headphone reviewed (the Zalman 5.1 headphones) and it got the same rating. The Zalman cans suck (this claim will be substatiated later).
Extreme MHz - 2 sets of headphones reviewed EVER. Nice site, but obviously a hobby site.
I would trust reviews from users on the Head-fi forums. Here's what they say about 5.1 headphones (because no one there has even though tof trying the mentors)...
"Before I say this let me state I am NOT trolling: All 5.1 headphones suck. Most use 6 cheapass drivers to create the "5.1 effect", and are very overpriced for their sound, build quality, and positioning abilities (they provide a very fun experience, though for serious gaming they're practically useless)."
Another user:
"Seriously, 5.1 headphones are a gimmick, all headphones that I know of have only 2 speakers, the smarts is in the software."
Another user:
"i find that positioning comes not from the headphones but rather just being used to hearing the game through them. thats why i would never trust some gaming site that spent a week testing them: once they got used to the sounds of the game through them, they work as well as any headphones (possibly less well due to loss of sensitivity) and are thus labeled "good for gaming." "
Another user:
"Thats what I was trying to explain; a headphone cannot provide a surround sound experience because of the lack of involvment of the pinna in the listening experience. The best that one can do is use surround sound processing that will make it seem as though it was surround."
And the best yet:
"I'm both an audiophile and gamer. In fact, I work at mp3.com and am right across the hall from gamespot.
Forget the 5.1 headphones, I've played around with a bunch of them and they are mostly just a gimmick. They sound horrible.
The headfiers here are leading you down the right path, do yourself a favor and pick up the a900s they are incredibly nice phones and for gaming they are great."
So my answer: Get it on head-fi with overwhelmingly good reviews, and you'll have my attention.
Also yes USB does bypass elaborate 5.1+ sound cards but AC97 does'nt (We have those too!) We also have AC3 and Wireless with Fiber Optic interface for anything else that drives the 5.1 Bus.
I noticed your wireless cans use the 2.4GHz frequency. I seriously doubt that anyone with a 2.4GHz phone and/or a 802.11b/g router will find the popping acceptable. It is widely known that the 2.4GHz band is no where near broad enough to offer flawless transmission, especially at the rate needed for high fidelity audio.
As for quality, I think it is VERY fair to call it into question. You say you have 3 drivers per ear, so 6 drivers. On your store these can cost $80. Assume around $20 for the amnufacturing and plastics and you have $10 per driver. Sorry. 6 $10 drivers does not equal 1 $60 driver. Sounds like surround sound fuzz to me. Put a $10 driver in Bose speaker and see what happens...
That in a nutshell is why 5.1 heaphones are a gimmick. And I won't even go into why the '.1' is impossible (hint: go find the smallest subwoofer you can. See how the size compares to any headphone)...
OneNutt
11-29-2004, 06:05 PM
I am not trying to start a fight. I just want to get the best information I can before buying a set of headphones, specifically for gaming. I notice a LOT of 5.1 headphone bashing occuring on forums (not just here) A few flaws in your arguments:
Let's see, the review you listed....
Geek Extreme - I couldn't find ANY other headphone reviews - no Senns, Sony's, or Zalman even. No point of reference, and no history of acceptable headphone reviews. The review is luke warm at best, very little detail was given on soundstage and high/mid/low frequency performance.
PC Extreme - appears not to exist. At least the link and the domain do not laod for me.
Atomic - no link given, just a quote.
Big Bruin - Again, only 1 other headphone reviewed (the Zalman 5.1 headphones) and it got the same rating. The Zalman cans suck (this claim will be substatiated later).
Extreme MHz - 2 sets of headphones reviewed EVER. Nice site, but obviously a hobby site.
Here is one that should be trusted. These "appear" to be rebadged LTB's.
http://reviews.designtechnica.com/review1176.html
I would trust reviews from users on the Head-fi forums. Here's what they say about 5.1 headphones (because no one there has even though tof trying the mentors)...
If they haven't tried them, then it is just opinion based on ignorance.
"Before I say this let me state I am NOT trolling: All 5.1 headphones suck. Most use 6 cheapass drivers to create the "5.1 effect", and are very overpriced for their sound, build quality, and positioning abilities (they provide a very fun experience, though for serious gaming they're practically useless)."
This guy says ALL 5.1's suck. I assume he bought ALL of them and tried them out himself before posting this fact.
Another user:
"Seriously, 5.1 headphones are a gimmick, all headphones that I know of have only 2 speakers, the smarts is in the software."
This one obviously has no idea how many speakers are in a 5.1 headphone, because they have 6 not 2. Therefore he does not know anything about 5.1 headphones, because he says he only knows of 2 speaker headphones.
Another user:
"Thats what I was trying to explain; a headphone cannot provide a surround sound experience because of the lack of involvment of the pinna in the listening experience. The best that one can do is use surround sound processing that will make it seem as though it was surround."
Isn't that the idea of regular headphones? Aren't the 5.1's trying to advance and enhance this feature?
Like I said, I want to make an educated purchase for the use I intend, gaming. Not for music. Not for movies. It seems logical to me that they would at least somewhat enhance the "surround" feeling of a game, but I just can't bring myself to plopping down that much cash for something I may or may not like. So Jmil, why don't you send ME a set of the AC97-M's for ME to review (non usb ones) and if I like them I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to purchase them from you. If they sound like crap, I will send them back to you. I would be more than willing to tell the world exactly what i think of them after trying them. i have nothing to gain or lose by lying, because I want my gaming experience to be good, not free.
Ioman
11-29-2004, 06:15 PM
OneNutt, have you researched other forums? If so, what are the readers in there saying? By using words like "ignorance" you are going to start a war in here whether you want it or not. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when you start name calling things heat up. I recommend you go to Best Buy or any other local store and try them out for yourself, if you do not like them then you should be able to return them.
Think about it, everyone in here says 5.1 headphones are not the best. The only person in hear actually supporting the 5.1 heaphones is an employee of a company that is selling rebadged units!
I think you need to have an iced tea and relax. You are coming across as being very high-strung when there is no reason to be. You haven't purchased any headphones yet, so you have not lost anything. You seem to want to believe that 5.1 headphones will be good despite everyone contradicting that belief. And you are playing devils advocate without having ever tried 5.1 headphones.
And for the record, NeuroKing is one of our staff writers and specializes in headphone and personal audio reviews. You can read his review of the $450 Pioneer surround sound headphones here: http://reviews.designtechnica.com/review1821.html
I will always take his recommendations when purchasing headphones - I recommend you do the same :)
OneNutt
11-29-2004, 06:27 PM
Sorry, I never meant to say Neuroking was ignorant. Apologies to Neuroking when you eventually read this if you take it as such. He said that nobody at hifi forums have thought of trying the headphone design in question. I was simply trying to point out that if nobody tries them, it is an opinion based on ignorance. I know someone there has surely tried them, I was just making a point. My reason for saying that is yes, I have checked other forums, and it all seems to be people saying how crappy they are, but nobody has really tried them. It's like people at BensBargains complaining about Tiger Direct or Outpost and have never bought from them, it's all hearsay. Most of the reviews I read are positive, most of the forum posts are negative.
Unfortunately I can't find a local vendor who sells 5.1 headphones, or this whole conversation would be me telling you they suck/are good from personal experience.
Sorry again for any feathers I ruffled, just trying to find people who have used them to give their opinion (other than NewEgg reviews)
OneNutt
11-29-2004, 06:48 PM
I think you need to have an iced tea and relax. You are coming across as being very high-strung when there is no reason to be....
...And for the record, NeuroKing is one of our staff writers and specializes in headphone and personal audio reviews. You can read his review of the $450 Pioneer surround sound headphones here: http://reviews.designtechnica.com/review1821.html
I will always take his recommendations when purchasing headphones - I recommend you do the same :)
Sorry, I wasn't feeling high strung at the time I posted, maybe I should put more smileys in my post :)
I don't need to read the review, you told me enough when you said $450... :)
I'm used to Walmart headphones. They have been fine in every game I have played until I got to Counterstrike Source. Suddenly I can't tell which direction I am getting shot from, so I am blaming my headphones (it certainly can't be that I am new to the game or that I am getting old) 5.1 sounds like a good idea, so yes, there is some of me that wants to believe they can sound good for a reasonable cost. A past review on this site gave the cheapies a 7/10 and the $450 pair was an 8/10, so the technology is obviously there.
Understood..
We try not to pick on each other...WE DO pick on other sites and SALES people trying to seel stuff here.
YES, 5.1 is SLOWLY coming out..and if you LOOKED at this posting, we BASTED the USB connection more then ANYTHING... The USB driver ISNT 5.1 with MOST sound cards. How many Mobo have the ac97, to USE this headphone..
Another point made about TECH, is that it STARTS expencive, and then GETS cheaper.. from $450-50 isnt right.. Even if we had the 3 plug set..There will be something LACKING... Apple and oranges, I know... But to many will see "5.1 surround sound", on the USB and wont understand...THey AINT going to get it.
OR...they see the "5.1 surround sound", even with the 3 plug-ins, but they DONT understand that it DONT work on there HP, DELL, or most CHEAP sound cards...
Your point is taken. Your opinion is appreciated, and you ALSO, posted our point for us.. from other sites...
OneNutt, thanks for posting. No feather ruffled here at all. Having good, critical discussions are healthy, as long as they are maintained in a constructive and informative way. :) Thanks for doing that.
neuroking
11-29-2004, 11:35 PM
Man, I leave for one day, and the whole 5.1 headphone thing blows up! LOL!
Here's the deal:
5.1 headphones are a gimmick for several reasons.
First, you are getting low quality drivers. Yes, 6 of them, but in acoustics, flaws are amplified, not disguised by number. You can find good cheap headphones, yes. But for $80-90 you can find much better quality headphones.
Next, the premise behind the 5.1 headphones sounds like a sound one (no pun intended!). You have 3 drivers positioned to mimic the positions of a 5.1 speaker system. The problem is that you still only have 2 ears. The sound coming from each driver converges at the ear and is conducted down the ear canal where it vibrates the eardrum, etc. You don't have '5.1 ears'. Instead directionality is taken, and I'm speaking neurologically here, from the variances that are experienced in the timing of overlapping sounds at each ear. An easy way to think of this is you hear a baby crying on your right. The majority of the vibrations are coming directly from that side and your brain assembles the 'rightness' of the sound. If you move the baby forward a little, like give it a little kick, hehe, weird mood, I know, the level of the left side increases in proportion to the movement, which you interpret as punted baby movement. Having 3 drivers on one ear does NOTHING to change the neurology and physics of the sound as it is processed by you, or as it is delivered to the ears. 5.1 speakers are slightly different because you have reflections off surfaces in the room and spatial matching to the area around the system.
The above is why only proper processing of the sound as it is emitted from the headphones is important. Dolby Headphone processes the sound cues to recreate the effects of the 'surroundedness', including up and down directions which are complicated (relies more on ear canal reflections). If you want to try it, PowerDVD has it built in now, so plug in any old set of cans. I'll gaurentee you that a junky set of $10 Sonys will sound 'great'.
Add to all that that heaphones, especially based on such cheap drivers generally have horrid bass. They simply can't produce the lowest frequencies. I don't care if the box says it goes down to 2Hz. Doesn't happen. Even the Zalman's were oddly honest, claiming only 50Hz, instead of 20. If there are high frequencies at the same time, you'll easily get clipping on any low end set of heaphones. Generally, the bass frequencies will cancel each other out of they aren't pure or just sound like a mess of rumbling. Think of it as getting a radio message in Counterstrike while you're naded. Crappy headhones wil fall to bits at moments like there. Or when you're trying to hear a teammate place the location of an awp sniper over the boom. Alot of times gamers want 'booming' bass, but don't realize that accurate, but STRONG bass is much better.
If you don't care about sound clarity, and you don't want to deal with setting your game sound options to 'headphones', yes the 5.1s will 'work'. You'll get muddy sound, directional muddy sound, if the quality isn't so poor that the 3 speakers create cross interference and cancel each other out (which is something else to consider, since Dolby 5.1 was never intended to be used at millimeters from your ears).
And no, never listened to em. But I don't care to. I haven't broken my leg, or shoved a pin in my eye either. But I have a good idea how all three will feel: painful.
(okay, so the eye has no pain receptors, but you get the idea)
Think of an $80 5.1 headphone as a $10 set in disguise. If all you want is a $10 set, but got $80 to blow, you'll have a toy most people will think is cool. If you do get a set to play with, make sure you watch for auditory placebo effect. Most people, when they get a new toy like this will create the effects they expect themselves.
As for some of the other comments, the Head-fi user that said there were only 2 speakers, meant speakers, not drivers. Just like those single speaker 5.1 setups that are gaining popularity. Or like towers have several drivers, but are only one speaker. That particular poster went on to explain what he/she meant.
As for our review, I didn't review it (Bad Jeff! Headphones to the headphone guy! LOL!). But we try to look at the intention behind and price range of the headphones. These are marketed only to gamers. All the sites sent review units were mostly gamer oriented. They're in the 'gamer headphone' price range. You can pick them up for $50. And even taking all that into account, they still did a barely adequate job. The Pioneers got a slightly better rating, but are infintely better. The problem is, if you're in the market for a $50 set of gaming cans, you aren't even looking at the $450 sets. Our reviews are in relation to the market and other products in the category. (btw- I noticed that Jeff didn't allow the set to burn in a couple days. There are many postings on that deep bass going crackly after a little extended use for all these 5.1 sets)
The reason I react so strongly to this particular product is because it sounds good. I uses a very dangerous logic to say, "We have a great product!" that appeals to people that don't know the science behind it. They use buzz words, and technology terms that make sense ina related area, but don't really apply. They flood the market with several variants of the product to create an artificial category consisting of mostly or only their product, and it gives the impression that this is the 'new thing'. I'm not trying to dump on any of the forum members' posts, but realize that there are much better options that not only are better for your intentions, but better for other uses.
We do need to get some gaming heaphone reviews up. After I'm done with this crazy grad school application junk, I'll try to do a gaming headphone bonanza!
(And yes, I am also addicted to CS:S, so I'll mess with some of my heaphones on hand as let you know what I think. btw-is it just me or are the headshot boxes the size of a small truck now?) :)
OneNutt
11-30-2004, 08:02 AM
Man, I leave for one day, and the whole 5.1 headphone thing blows up! LOL!
We noobs schedule it that way, what fun would it be around here if we only showed up when the expert was around? :)Next, the premise behind the 5.1 headphones sounds like a sound one (no pun intended!). You have 3 drivers positioned to mimic the positions of a 5.1 speaker system. The problem is that you still only have 2 ears. The sound coming from each driver converges at the ear and is conducted down the ear canal where it vibrates the eardrum, etc. You don't have '5.1 ears'. Instead directionality is taken, and I'm speaking neurologically here, from the variances that are experienced in the timing of overlapping sounds at each ear. An easy way to think of this is you hear a baby crying on your right. The majority of the vibrations are coming directly from that side and your brain assembles the 'rightness' of the sound. If you move the baby forward a little, like give it a little kick, hehe, weird mood, I know, the level of the left side increases in proportion to the movement, which you interpret as punted baby movement. Having 3 drivers on one ear does NOTHING to change the neurology and physics of the sound as it is processed by you, or as it is delivered to the ears. 5.1 speakers are slightly different because you have reflections off surfaces in the room and spatial matching to the area around the system.Obviously I am not an expert so I am using my own convoluted rationale here.
My understanding of the way 5.1 works is either wrong or wrong. Let's go with your baby kicking episode here, and eliminate the center channel. My assumption is that if a baby is crying on the right, the 2 right channels would play the sound equally (assuming directly to the right) and the 2 left channels would play it equally BUT quieter and ever so slightly later than the right channels. If you kicked the baby to the left/front, the sound would grow louder on the left/front channel, quieter on the right/front, even quieter on the right/rear and I would assume louder on the left/rear depending on how hard you kicked the baby. (wait a minute, I think I lost myself :))
So if the headphones are playing the sound of the baby to the right, then you would have sound in both ears, left being quieter, giving you the "surround" sound. I don't like the "you only have 2 ears" argument because with 5.1 speakers, you still only have 2 ears and with regular headphones you still only have 2 ears. :) the 5.1 speakers and the headphones are just trying to fool you into thinking the sound is coming from the right and moving to the front left. Same principle would apply to the 5.1 headphones, just closer to the head. The sound would still come out on the left side, just quieter to simulate "surround". I would think it would THEORETICALLY sound "more surround" being in headphones because it's not bouncing off walls and requiring them to be setup in a proper location. The sound card is the device telling the speakers or headphones what to play where, so it should still sound "surround" in headphones.
(I also want to state I am not interested in the "USB" sound devices that a lot of these headphone people are starting to push. I plan on using the onboard surround I have and it it sucks getting an Audigy something or other)Add to all that that heaphones, especially based on such cheap drivers generally have horrid bass. They simply can't produce the lowest frequencies. I don't care if the box says it goes down to 2Hz. Doesn't happen. Even the Zalman's were oddly honest, claiming only 50Hz, instead of 20. If there are high frequencies at the same time, you'll easily get clipping on any low end set of heaphones. Generally, the bass frequencies will cancel each other out of they aren't pure or just sound like a mess of rumbling. Think of it as getting a radio message in Counterstrike while you're naded. Crappy headhones wil fall to bits at moments like there. Or when you're trying to hear a teammate place the location of an awp sniper over the boom. Alot of times gamers want 'booming' bass, but don't realize that accurate, but STRONG bass is much better.
If you don't care about sound clarity, and you don't want to deal with setting your game sound options to 'headphones', yes the 5.1s will 'work'. You'll get muddy sound, directional muddy sound, if the quality isn't so poor that the 3 speakers create cross interference and cancel each other out (which is something else to consider, since Dolby 5.1 was never intended to be used at millimeters from your ears).
In CS:S do you have yours set to headphones or 2 speakers? If I put mine on phones it sounds "canny".
Sounds logical, except when I get naded I generally die and slam my mouse down and scream bs really loud. :) So if a manufacturer were to use good drivers, do you feel that 5.1 phones would enhance a gamers experience moreso than standard phones? Maybe I need to design a helmet to wear with surround in it to get the speakers farther off the head :) (where's my dremel...)
If you do get a set to play with, make sure you watch for auditory placebo effect. Most people, when they get a new toy like this will create the effects they expect themselves.
I want what sounds the best, I have no love for either side, despite what it may sound like. (I pretty much argue about everything :))
As for some of the other comments, the Head-fi user that said there were only 2 speakers, meant speakers, not drivers. Just like those single speaker 5.1 setups that are gaining popularity. Or like towers have several drivers, but are only one speaker. That particular poster went on to explain what he/she meant.
I misunderstood the quote, gosh, there's a first.
These are marketed only to gamers. All the sites sent review units were mostly gamer oriented. They're in the 'gamer headphone' price range. You can pick them up for $50. And even taking all that into account, they still did a barely adequate job. The Pioneers got a slightly better rating, but are infintely better. The problem is, if you're in the market for a $50 set of gaming cans, you aren't even looking at the $450 sets.
Sounds like me in a nutshell. 50-75$ and for gaming only. I don't use sound for anything else (on this PC).
I'm not trying to dump on any of the forum members' posts, but realize that there are much better options that not only are better for your intentions, but better for other uses.
I plan on picking up a pair of Sennheiser's to compare whatever "5.1's" I decide I have to waste my money trying and keeping what sounds the best in my situation. I'd rather lose 15% restocking fee and be happy.
With that in mind I saw 5 models in my price range. Any suggestions for gaming?
PC150-36$ (new, the mic is a draw to me for TS)
HD497-37$ (reconditioned)
HD500-50$ (reconditioned)
HD280-57$ (reconditioned)
HD570-70$ (refurbished)
(And yes, I am also addicted to CS:S, so I'll mess with some of my heaphones on hand as let you know what I think. btw-is it just me or are the headshot boxes the size of a small truck now?) :)
Umm, actually when I am playing, your headshot box is the size of a quarter, mine is the size of a garage. :) I have never played CS before, I just got it a couple weeks before HL2 came out. I generally only play one game online, because I am stubborn, old and don't have a lot of time to learn. I can say I never saw so many headshots in SOF2 as I do in CS:S. it seems like it takes more skill to kill someone and not get a headshot :) Do you play as Neuroking?
You know, I have a set of Sony MDR-7506 and I think they sound great. They cost between $80-$100. They are not surround but I use them for gaming and listening to music.
Basicly you would need a headphone that went BEHIND your head.
neuroking
11-30-2004, 11:57 PM
Your version of the baby kicking description is correct for 5.1 headphones. They'd act just like speakers. The flaw is that regardless of where the speakers/drivers are, the sound converges all to the same point: the eardrum. So, even though the baby has been punted from direct right to front left, any sound it makes that cues it's location is done primarily by variance in volume and cognitive intuition. For instance, you hear the baby directly to your right. If it kicked back behind you, the natural reaction is to turn your head, which allows better location determination. Humans in general have very poor directional queuing for sounds behind them and rely more on compensating with head movement (which is a whole other ball of wax on proprioception), and cognitive processing that basically says, "if the baby sound further away and is out of view, it is most likely moving behind you".
The Head-fi poster talking about the pina was referring to some processing that occurs using the ratio of the vibration of the outer ear, to the vibration of the eardrum. For example, baby cries in front of you. The loudness of the sound, just for the sake of having a measurement here, is 10 on the eardrum and 10 on the pina. If the baby is behind you, the vibration on the pina will be 9 and the eardrum 6. In other words, you process that the ear itself is being vibrated in a manner that suggests the sound source is behind you. A general problem with headphones is that the pina can't properly come into play, since it is compressed against the head (regardless of the headphone design, the ear is always deformed a little).
For the cans you listed, the pc150s don't really grab my attention ($5 desktop mics are fine for gaming), the 500s have a 'dampening mechanism' which might mean, " no big booms while yer sniped". The 497 are kind of a standard recommendation, but the 570s are just a step down from the 590s (I think slightly cheaper housing), which are overall great cans. So I would go 570>497>500
I used to be addicted to CS, but stopped after 9/11 (felt too damn weird blowing up buildings and celebrating). Everyone from the old version is complaining about the headshot situation. I just run through people aiming high and can take down 3-4 people with a SMP just because it shoots more bullets than a rifle. I got back one night from a drinking binge with friends and played - just run right into the middle of everyone aiming at the heads, and had a 7:1 kill:death ratio. It was nuts. I change my name often, though. Was Spanky the Angry Hampster. Depends on my mood. If you see someone frustrated and just throwing smoke grenades every 2 seconds to piss people off with bad graphics cards - that's me :) What's your sn?
Mine is ECA, and Im on Neo, Sven, and Firearms...
The trick with headphones THO, is if they can use the Other parts of hear, besides the ears. And there isnt one, lately.. the Bonephone was a neet device, but has had no followup. You would have to cover 1/2 of the sides of your head, along with the upper shoulders to get a decent effect.
the best you could do NOW, would be a full helmet, useing echo effects and Vibration.
OneNutt
12-01-2004, 01:56 PM
If you see someone frustrated and just throwing smoke grenades every 2 seconds to piss people off with bad graphics cards - that's me :) What's your sn?
LMAO. I generally do the "toss a flash while running into a doorway" and miss the doorway, flashing the entire team. I always play as One Nutt.
Ok, a brief update. I found a local vendor who had 2 different brands of 5.1 headphones I was looking at. I bought one of each (Kinyo and IOMagic). The quality was roughly the same in both of them, the IOMagic had more features though. I liked the amp part, especially the IO one, it was USB powered instead of a wallwart. They both played an mp3 well. They both gave a "surround" feel in CS:S*. they both completely sucked turd in SOF2, to the point of taking them off and plugging back in my Wallyworld specials I use now.
*Although they did sound "surround", I felt like I was sitting in a trash can playing. The IOMagics had inline front/rear/center adjustments, which did no good in making it sound un-trashcanlike. It was wierd, it must have something to do with the surround, because playing the mp3, which Winamp only played out the front line, they both sounded better than the ones I currently have. They are going back and I am going to pick up a pair of Sennheiser somethings. I do think that with better parts there is potential here, someone just needs to get rid of the trash can sound to them. The only other pair I would consider looking at now is the Speed-link Medusa 5.1's. I MIGHT try them once if they allow returns for crappy product. (that's a box on the RMA form isn't it?)
Thanks for all the advice, hopefully I will be satisfied with the Sennheisers. :)
Oh,
Thats why environmental effects on sound cards are NEET... You can KILL that.
Get rid of the HOLLOW effect and muffle it..
IOmagic has neet products but they are RE-labels..mostly..
the #1 thing I lok for in Mics, and Headphones??? The WIRE... Cheap mics have that skinny wire that always breaks.. same with headphones..
10 cents worth of cable...
for a Nic, I went and found an OLD, tape recorder mic.. Radio shack and GE make them... they work, VERY well, and NO cable breaks.
Sorry,
I guess I'm ignorant as to why we are spending so much time bashing 5.1 headphones? Again does anyone reconize the benefits of 5.1? Go ahead and try them! LTB will not charge any restocking fee if you purchase our USB Headphones Between 12/3/04 - 12/31/04 so just to let you try them (Shipping charge will not be refunded). Mention " Designtechnica Forum" and we'll grant that. Really Hearing is Believing and you will see more from LTB Very soon!
Order here from us directly http://www.mentorsurround.com
( Moderator... You decide if you want this message deleted, hope you leave it for the benefit of those who are curious) ...
OneNutt
12-03-2004, 12:28 PM
I guess I'm ignorant as to why we are spending so much time bashing 5.1 headphones? Again does anyone reconize the benefits of 5.1?
Maybe it's because nobody has made a good pair? Maybe it's because you guys don't have ANY legitimate websites with reviews? (well, except for LegitReviews.com, but you might as well name your site TrustUsReally.com or WeWouldntLieForFreeStuff.com or StuffThatDoesntTotallySuck.com) Maybe you should send a pair to THIS website, or one dedicated to doing audio products.
I know what the benefits of a good set of 5.1 headphones COULD be, but the 2 sets I have tried sounded very hollow. I can't imagine your 15mm drivers sounding any different than the last ones.
neuroking
12-03-2004, 03:47 PM
Mine is ECA, and Im on Neo, Sven, and Firearms...
The trick with headphones THO, is if they can use the Other parts of hear, besides the ears. And there isnt one, lately.. the Bonephone was a neet device, but has had no followup. You would have to cover 1/2 of the sides of your head, along with the upper shoulders to get a decent effect.
the best you could do NOW, would be a full helmet, useing echo effects and Vibration.
I get what you're saying but you're still missing the point, kinda. Even with bone conduction, the act of hearing is only done in mono by each ear. There is no front eardrum, middle, or '.1' eardrum for that matter. The smarts is entirely in the software, or wetware (your brain). Proper processing = surround effect. With the proper processing, the brain is fooled into believing the sound is created outside the headphones in 3D space.
Or I misunderstood your post. Which is very possible. I didn't sleep again... Damn you Counterstrike!
neuroking
12-03-2004, 03:52 PM
Sorry,
I guess I'm ignorant as to why we are spending so much time bashing 5.1 headphones? Again does anyone reconize the benefits of 5.1? Go ahead and try them! LTB will not charge any restocking fee if you purchase our USB Headphones Between 12/3/04 - 12/31/04 so just to let you try them (Shipping charge will not be refunded). Mention " Designtechnica Forum" and we'll grant that. Really Hearing is Believing and you will see more from LTB Very soon!
Order here from us directly http://www.mentorsurround.com
( Moderator... You decide if you want this message deleted, hope you leave it for the benefit of those who are curious) ...
I think people understand the benefit of 5.1 speaker systems. But if you've read this thread, and understand it, you understand why 5.1 headphones are not only unnecessary, but worse than a pair of similarly priced 'stereo' headphones.
I find it funny that there is a special deal solely for this thread. Don't offer a rebuttal, but hey! Save a buck if they suck promo! LOL
neuroking
12-03-2004, 03:54 PM
Maybe it's because nobody has made a good pair? Maybe it's because you guys don't have ANY legitimate websites with reviews? (well, except for LegitReviews.com, but you might as well name your site TrustUsReally.com or WeWouldntLieForFreeStuff.com or StuffThatDoesntTotallySuck.com) Maybe you should send a pair to THIS website, or one dedicated to doing audio products.
I know what the benefits of a good set of 5.1 headphones COULD be, but the 2 sets I have tried sounded very hollow. I can't imagine your 15mm drivers sounding any different than the last ones.
LOL! I almost peed myself laughing at this! Rock on!
I found a new favorite CS:S past time: nading myself to falls in odd palces so I get funky rag doll effects. I know. Easily amused.
NG,
Check out a site called GUNBOUND...
Its a cool cannon game... World wide..
angle, power, wind.. special weather...
You build up, and add stuff to your archon.. its cool.
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