Talk Back: Apple iMac mini and iPod Shuffle, Worth the Hype?

[dang]

Checkout our latest Talk Back: Apple iMac mini and iPod Shuffle, Worth the Hype? (http://news.designtechnica.com/talkback46.html)

[Archon]

Apple iMac mini and iPod Shuffle, Worth the Hype?

No. Great talk back

[flashfire]

<Flame ON> I love my Imac and would never switch back. The Apple Mini is a great answer to give a machine for my daughter in her bedroom. I wouldn't switch back to a windows machine for anything (too much spyware, etc). I do think the Flash based Ipod has being a tad hypocritical, but at least Apple is responding w/ a solid entry that still holds most of the market. You seem to have a gripe w/ apple, but all the failures you listed in your article seem to be failed innovations that lead to new ideas or at least told apple not to enter a market more fully. (look to how MS is succeeding and failing w/ the XBox similtaneously). <flame off> I think you did a great job stating your case. Unfortunately, I would rather have more expensive innovative company (even if every idea doesn't work out sometimes) to another Dell / HPAQ monster employing the chinese to produce mediocre spyware zombots.

[Ioman]

I like the iMac mini and wouldn't mind using it as a music server. I think the iPod Shuffle is the stupidest thing I have seen. I can get an iRiver or MPIO for the same price with a screen, FM tuner, encoder, etc.

IMO the iPod kept Apple alive. Without that product they would still be struggling. In fact, I am not even sure that iMac sales are generating profit for the company.

I like Apple, but they are not the holy grail of the CE world. I think they just got lucky with the iPod, its a great product.

[toycritic]

Kudos to Rob for cutting through the Apple hype. Apple has some great ideas, and its products always look cool, but the blizzard of hype from the company's slavish admirers in the press (see virtually any story about Apple in the NY Times) makes it hard for consumers to make informed decisions. For my own part, the thing I least like about the Mac is that I can't buy one from IBM.

[flashfire]

to ioman's point. the mini would probably be a great music server. To toycritic: Apple advertising and design seems over the top, but remember the bulk of their loyal followers are marketing and graphics folks so I'm sure apple has created a self-induced need for the best design and marketing simply out of the audience even if its overkill sometimes.

[Ioman]

Here is a similar article although not as aggresive: http://news.com.com/Macintosh+Its+a+Madison+Avenue+thing/2010-7354_3-5532698.html?tag=nefd.ac

[aadler]

Is he saying that the iMac is dangerous during earthquakes?
Well THAT's an interesting point....

[aadler]

But apart from that:
The Shuffle will succeed because of iTunes, SW that the competitors don't have. The beauty lies in the integration of SW and HW, not in HW-specs.

[Ioman]

Is he saying that the iMac is dangerous during earthquakes?
Well THAT's an interesting point....

I thought that was pretty goofy, but I guess the new iMac is probably top heavy. I haven't heard much about it since its launch, how are the new iMac's doing sales-wise?

[Ioman]

Dell CEO Kevin Rollins’s had the following to say about Apple:

"It’s interesting the iPod has been out for three years and it’s only this past year it’s become a raging success. Well those things that become fads rage and then they drop off. When I was growing up there was a product made by Sony called the Sony Walkman – a rage, everyone had to have one. Well you don’t hear about the Walkman anymore. I believe that one product wonders come and go. You have to have sustainable business models, sustainable strategy…[The Mac mini] might take some here and there, but Apple’s market share in the global computer business has really shrunk pretty far. Where they’ve been making success recently is not in the computer business, but in the iPod music business. So this might be an interesting new product but I’m not really believing this is going to turn the industry upside down."

http://www.macminute.com/2005/01/17/dell/

[kepaloha]

Originally Posted by aadler
Is he saying that the iMac is dangerous during earthquakes?
Well THAT's an interesting point....

I was thinking about that too. But then again if you live in an area that is always having them, I guess that is one idea to look for.

[smokeomit]

didnt' the writer forget that the mini and all apple cpu's run on a rock solid OS???

my 2 cents

[_Arthur]

I'm not aware of any significant contribution from IBM to Mac OSX code, and I doubt seriously that Rob can back up his wild affirmation with any specifics.

[dang]

I'm not aware of any significant contribution from IBM to Mac OSX code, and I doubt seriously that Rob can back up his wild affirmation with any specifics.

That's a simple one. He's referring to the MACH kernel, which Darwin is built upon. For more info on Darwin, go here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Darwin). For more info on the MACH kernel, go here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_kernel).

I actually had my old 8500/120 running the MACH kernel when I was back in college. Was just like running a plain ol bsd box, which is what is was.

[_Arthur]

That's a simple one. He's referring to the MACH kernel, which Darwin is built upon.

MACH was developped at Carnegie-Mellon; one of its authors now works for Microsoft, the other worked for NeXT, now works for Apple.

I see no IBM angle in MACH or Darwin.

[Ioman]

I did some research on Google and found the following:

http://studies.ac.upc.edu/FIB/DSO/papers/rashid89mach.pdf

"The Mach operating system is currently being distributed with full 4.3BSD binary compatibility (implemented inkernel-state) by Carnegie Mellon University for the IBM RT-PC, VAX and SUN 3 family of processors. "

"In addition,commercial versions of Mach are available from BBN Ad-vanced Computers Inc., Evans and Sutherland ComputerDivision, Encore Computers and NeXT. Mach has beenported to a wide range of uniprocessors and multiprocessorsincluding the IBM RP3, Sequent Balance, Macintosh II, IBM370 and the Intel 386."

I am not saying whos right, just that you can find information about this on Google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=IBM+and+MACH+kernel

[Ioman]

Found another definition here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_kernel

"Versions of Mach-based operating systems of this ilk were found in OSF/1, NeXTSTEP, and IBM's OS/2 for the RS/6000-based machines - all of which are no longer widely used. Other operating systems looked to migrate to this sort of system as well, including Apple's Pink, IBM's Workplace OS, and any number of others.

Apple selected OPENSTEP to be the basis for the successor of the classic Mac OS. It became the Cocoa API of Mac OS X. OPENSTEP is in fact an upgraded version of NeXTSTEP, which used Mach 2.5. As such, OPENSTEP's Mach/BSD amalgam is the basis for Apple's Mac OS X operating system.

The lead developer on the Mach project, Richard F. Rashid, has been working at Microsoft since 1991 in various top-level positions revolving around the Microsoft Research division. Microsoft's Windows NT, forerunner of the current Windows XP, began with a microkernel-based model similar to the Mach's one.

Another of the original Mach developers, Avie Tevanian, was formerly head of software at NeXT and today is Chief Software Technology Officer at Apple."

[Ioman]

MACH was developped at Carnegie-Mellon; one of its authors now works for Microsoft, the other worked for NeXT, now works for Apple.

I see no IBM angle in MACH or Darwin.

I want to point out that a whole article or written "opinion" from someone does not become invalid because of what someone might view as a minor error in a historical reference. I think Rob's opinions on where he believes Apple is going are clearly reflected. We either agree or disagree with his points.

Next thing we could be arguing about is spelling and grammar, and I do not want to go to that level. It will turn a healthy discussion in troll flame bait on the forums.

[Ioman]

Lastly, after reading his column more, don't think he was connecting IBM to the OS but to the hardware itself, much of what is now in the Apple hardware is either IBM outright (the processor) or comes from the PC industry that IBM started. At one time the Apple PC was mostly Apple now it largely isn’t, it borrows heavily from the PC industry which, in hardware, owes its existence to IBM’s modular IP which forms the source for both platforms now. Much of the PowerPC interconnect technology is now IBM’s, and if you look at IBM’s roadmap for the PowerPC, if Apple stays with it, they will have adopt more of it over time or the part will no longer work.

[_Arthur]

So Enderle is trying to say that current Macs are merely BSD running over an IBM chip ?

PowerPC chips, until the G5, were made by Motorola and IBM. Obvioulsy Enderle sees using IBM chips as something dubious.

I didn't see Enderle saying that Microsoft Windows contains AMD IP because it runs on AMD chips.

Rob Endele has often commented on Apple's products and strategy, hand he has a .000 score at bat so far.

[makeinu]

This is another step in what appears to be Apple’s sudden transition from Porsche vendor to VW vendor and this will not be an easy, nor inexpensive, transition.

Someone please point out to Mr. Enderle that Porsche and Volkswagen are designed and built by the same company, making this a really lousy analogy for more than one reason.

Oh, and FWIW, Apple reported an increase in iMac sales year on year after the release of the G5 iMac, as part of a 26% overall increase in CPU sales. The report can be found here (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/jan/12results.html), and the details can be found here. (http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q105data_sum.pdf)

It amazes me that Rob has so many paid positions as an analyst where he's allowed to be so wrong so often. Must be nice. I'm obviously in the wrong line of work.

Anyone who wants to challenge that statement is welcome to do so, but I want to see one time where one of his Death Knells for Apple has ever come even close. Within about a hundred miles would be fine.

[rocketmac]

Rob Enderlie
It would be interesting to find out what qualifies you in writing about the Mac ?
It is obvious that you have never used one, and are merely spouting the the old anti-mac retoric that most un-informed WinDoze users seem to believe..

As to the question of whether or not the Mac mini is worth the price or not... consider this... in a recently published article, a brand new Dell running XP / SP2 was put on the internet, and in less than 20 minutes, it was found to have over 2,000 pieces of various spyware / keystroke loggers / pop-ups and other malware...
These things do not affect a Mac, because of several reasons... Most Mac users dont rely on IE for browsing, nor Outlook for email.... (Using Mozillas Firefox and Thunderbird for those tasks will reduce inadvertant malware by up to 75%) ..

Two strikes against Microsoft... Furthermore... Windoze, itself is a virus magnet... No need to run anti virus software on a Mac, unless you want to protect PC counterparts from receiving infected files from you...
The term "Computer Virus" is a misnomer... because the only Computers viruses attack, are those running WinDoze !

Three strikes against Microsoft ! ...

The Mac mini is a perfect solution for those wishing to rid themselves once and for all of the problems accociated with running the OS and software created in Redmond ... Not to mention the very affordable price ! ...

Remember, Microsoft Office was written for the Mac first.... and it still is !!... so, no incompatibility issues there !

So, Mr Enderle ....

I challenge you ...

Try a Mac ... (any model) ... even the Mac mini .... and after two weeks, if you dont agree.. that OSX is light years more advanced than WinDoze ... Easier to use... even for the novice ... and ..a better all around computing experience, you can always get your money back on ebay .... no harm done...

Nothing ventured..nothing gained...

On the other hand.... you REALLY should research a topic well, before you write about it.... because, when you dont.... you end up losing credibility ... and pieces like this one only do much disservice to the general reading public

[dang]

Someone please point out to Mr. Enderle that Porsche and Volkswagen are designed and built by the same company, making this a really lousy analogy for more than one reason.

They may be designed by the same firm, but they definitely dont have the same price or models. I believe this is the anology that Rob is making, instead of being a high prices / elite type (porsche) manufacturer, they are entering into the more budget conscious, for everyone(VW) realm.

[librium]

http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/4822/

read it.
and the comments
yes you to Rob.

[solsun]

That whole article was quite amusing. Pure Apple bashing by an obvious Apple hater.

Few points regarding the iMac G5....

First of all, the new iMac G5 carries the bulk of it’s weight at the bottom of the display, not at the top. (the white area below the LCD is where most of the components lie.)

Secondly and the most laughable comment in the article was regarding the iMac‘s glass breaking and shattering in the event of an earthquake. There is absolutely NO breakable glass anywhere to be found on the iMac G5. The front of the iMac has an LCD display (which BTW is not made of glass,) while the rest of the unit is made from the same white plastic that the front of iPod‘s are made of. Has this guy even seen an iMac in person? What a joke!

That being said, the iMac G5 is doing extremely well. With Apples fourth quarter results posted last week, Macintosh CPU‘s doubled the growth rate of the PC industry. Mac’s had a 26% growth rate while PC’s only had a 13% growith rate over last year.

The majority of the increase in Apple’s CPU sales is largely due to the iMac G5. The majority of users (more than 50% according to Apple’s Q4 conference call) who purchased the iMac G5 were former Windows users and first time computer buyers.

And these statistics do not include any market share increase that the Mac Mini will surely provide for Apple in the coming months and years.

It’s one thing if this guy does not like Apple’s products, but if he’s gonna review (or bash) them, he at least needs to get his facts straight if he expects any credibility.

[neuroking]

Is he saying that the iMac is dangerous during earthquakes?
Well THAT's an interesting point....

Actually, I think this is a good point. Also, I have 2 cats, that like to walk behind my LCDs at home (it's warm and cozy there and they can peek around the corner at the 'magical moving picture'), and I would never even consider an iMac because I think they would knock it over easily.

I would be interesting if they offered a VESA mount on the back of the iMac.

[neuroking]

didnt' the writer forget that the mini and all apple cpu's run on a rock solid OS???

my 2 cents

My experience with OSX and it's groundbreaking stability:
Out of the box - great!
Install one piece of software - daily crashes!

OSX is NOT as stable as Mac-sicists would want you to believe. Takes me back to System 7.5.2 *ewwwww*

(comment written by a former Mac evangelist)

[solsun]

Actually, I think this is a good point. Also, I have 2 cats, that like to walk behind my LCDs at home (it's warm and cozy there and they can peek around the corner at the 'magical moving picture'), and I would never even consider an iMac because I think they would knock it over easily.

I would be interesting if they offered a VESA mount on the back of the iMac.

Yes, the iMacs are VESA compliant. However, this notion that the iMac is not stable on its pedestal stand is completely false. I know because I own one. They are very stable and firmly planted on the desktop, more-so than a standard LCD display because of the extra weight at the bottom of the display. It would take a heck of a lot more than a cat to knock one over. Even a cat jumping on top of the display would not make it budge. If you see one in person you will understand what I mean.

[neuroking]

And one last comment from me...

One thing Maccies like to point out is the vulnerability to spyware/viruses/malware. I find this fittingly ironic. The reason there's more is two-fold:
1) The writers want to obtain profit/recognition. Therefore, you want to use the most widely used OS out there. It's not that a virus for Macs would be any harder to make. It's jsut that fewer people, less than .001% of the world/market, care.
2) Apple has traditionally been cold toward its developers. The move to a UNIX based system was supposed to open the floodgates for programs to be written more easily, etc. If it's that easy, why WOULDN'T people write viruses/spyware/malware for Macs? Answer: it isn't. Another reasont aht 98%+ of Windows software isn't taken over to the Mac side.

Ask many developers why they don't write for Macs and the number one reason is, "It's not profitable." Period.

[solsun]

My experience with OSX and it's groundbreaking stability:
Out of the box - great!
Install one piece of software - daily crashes!

OSX is NOT as stable as Mac-sicists would want you to believe. Takes me back to System 7.5.2 *ewwwww*

(comment written by a former Mac evangelist)

You know I don’t go around bashing Windows or Windows users, but I do promote the Mac experience whenever I can. Simply because of the amount of false an completely way off base comments (like the one above) that i hear daily.

If you are happy as a Windows user, then fine stick with Windows. But, why do you feel the need to make a statement like “ If I install one software application on OSX, it crashes daily.” That is just as idiotic as saying that you wouldn’t buy an iMac for fear of the glass shattering during an earthquake, When the iMac doesn’t have any glass on it.

I can honestly say that my iMac G5 running OSX has not had a single crash in the year that I have owned it. I can also say that I have NO firewall or virus protection installed. The computer is connected to the internet 24/7 and I’ve not had a single problem with malware, spyware, viruses, etc.. I rarely restart more than once or twice a month and I’ve installed a fair amount of third party software and have done numerous updates without a hitch. Yes, I would say that for me, OSX is rock solid stable.

Just confirms the fact that most people who bash Mac’s are speaking blindly and truly don’t know a thing about them.

[neuroking]

Yes, the iMacs are VESA compliant. However, this notion that the iMac is not stable on its pedestal stand is completely false. I know because I own one. They are very stable and firmly planted on the desktop, more-so than a standard LCD display because of the extra weight at the bottom of the display. It would take a heck of a lot more than a cat to knock one over. Even a cat jumping on top of the display would not make it budge. If you see one in person you will understand what I mean.

Just looked it up and the iMac, in true Apple fashion, is not VESA compliant, but you can bet they offer an add on to make it so! Charge for anything you can!

And I have seen them in a store. They would fall over. It doesn't matter that the weight is at the bottom of the monitor - it's the center of gravity being too high. The old iMac was excellent, IMO, because the vast majority of the weight was right on the desktop. Most LCDs add weight at the bottom of the stands exactly for this reason.

[neuroking]

You know I don’t go around bashing Windows or Windows users, but I do promote the Mac experience whenever I can. Simply because of the amount of false an completely way off base comments (like the one above) that i hear daily.

If you are happy as a Windows user, then fine stick with Windows. But, why do you feel the need to make a statement like “ If I install one software application on OSX, it crashes daily.” That is just as idiotic as saying that you wouldn’t buy an iMac for fear of the glass shattering during an earthquake, When the iMac doesn’t have any glass on it.

I can honestly say that my iMac G5 running OSX has not had a single crash in the year that I have owned it. I can also say that I have NO firewall or virus protection installed. The computer is connected to the internet 24/7 and I’ve not had a single problem with malware, spyware, viruses, etc.. I rarely restart more than once or twice a month and I’ve installed a fair amount of third party software and have done numerous updates without a hitch. Yes, I would say that for me, OSX is rock solid stable.

Just confirms the fact that most people who bash Mac’s are speaking blindly and truly don’t know a thing about them.

Well that would be all fine and good if I weren't a member of ADC for two years, an Apple lab tech from high school through half of college, and called on to repair my co-worker personal use macs whenever they crap out on them.

I have found them to be very prone to core dumps, picky about upgrades, and poorly supported by most vendors. Maybe you got lucky. Steve Jobs didn't when his G5 crapped out on him during the MWSF 2005 keynote (which I did watch until Quicktime decided that streaming was a real Windows-like thing to do and refused to continue following the herd). Sure Gates has had his share of snafus on stage, but the point is let's not pretend the Mac has such incredible stability when in real world use it doesn't.

As for the talkback, I'm gonna disagree and say that Apple has been very successful in competing on the low end in its current incarnate. That was the whole idea behind the iMac (remember the "price of a pizza a week" commercial). Where they do decidedly worse is the mid and high range. At the mid range, a PC costs around $1k cheaper, and at the high end it can be upwards of $4k more expensive. Besides that, just in everyday occurances, how often do you see and iMac, versus a full G5? Hellofalot more often!

[solsun]

Jsut looked it up and the iMac, in true Apple fashion, is not VESA compliant, but you can bet they offer an add on to make it so! Charge for anything you can!

And I have seen them in a store. They would fall over. It doesn't matter that the weight is at the bottom of the monitor - it's the center of gravity being too high. The old iMac was excellent, IMO, because the vast majority of the weight was right on the desktop. Most LCDs add weight at the bottom of the stands exactly for this reason.

Point 1. Yes, You are correct you need to BUY the $29 attachment to use a VESA arm. The audacity to charge for an adapter that 90% of people would not even use.

Point 2. You are wrong. They would not, AND do not fall over easily. They’ve sold more than a million iMac G5’s so far. I’ve not heard of one iMac owner where this has been a problem. Check the Apple discussion forums regarding this. Until today, I’ve never heard of anyone having a problem with their iMac tipping over. The one person who did mention that this could be a potential issue (the author of a very uniformed review) obviously has not tested nor seen the iMac G5 in person. If he did, he would‘ve know that it’s not made of glass.

[solsun]

Price?

Okay, let me ask you these questions.

1. Do you feel that your Windows machine is stable?

2. Do you feel that you are secure from spyware and malware on the internet?

3. How easy do you consider the process of intstalling software on your machine? On Mac OSX its as simple as clicking “agree” and “install”

4. How easy do you consider the process of un-installing software on your machine? On Mac OSX its as simple as dragging an application to the trash.

5. Do you feel that the applications on your machine work together and are tightly integrated into the OS? With OSX iLife, mail, address book, safari, everything is completely integrated and works stunningly together.

5. How many hours per month do you spend doing Admin on your computer? On Mac OSX, I click a button to “repair permissions“ after an install, nothing more.

6. How many drivers have you had to install to plug in devices such as printers, scanners, cameras, digital cameras etc? On Mac OSX... None.

Now look at your answers and I think you might find the reasons that people choose Mac. True, they may cost more initially, but in the long run, the total cost of ownership is proven to be considerably less. Plus, Macs hold their value extremely well. Check ebay and compare the resale value of used Macs compared to used PC’s.

[C?BS!]

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. He's obviously from another planet. Earthquakes? Pleeeze! I haven't heard this much BS in one article in a long time. If you're talking about intellectual property why not mention Microsoft's absolute rip-off of the Mac OS in "developing" Windows? Two years ago I bought Apple stock at $14 when they announced the switch to a modern (unix based) OS, leaving Microsoft as the only remaining die-hard proprietary OS. I'm laughing all the way to the bank as my shares in this dying company are now at $71+.

[squishy]

What is over the top?

[squishy]

What's your point.

[neuroking]

Point 1. Yes, You are correct you need to BUY the $29 attachment to use a VESA arm. The audacity to charge for an adapter that 90% of people would not even use.

Point 2. You are wrong. They would not, AND do not fall over easily. They’ve sold more than a million iMac G5’s so far. I’ve not heard of one iMac owner where this has been a problem. Check the Apple discussion forums regarding this. Until today, I’ve never heard of anyone having a problem with their iMac tipping over. The one person who did mention that this could be a potential issue (the author of a very uniformed review) obviously has not tested nor seen the iMac G5 in person. If he did, he would‘ve know that it’s not made of glass.

1) Yes, but most LCD makers buld the VESA Mount into the case and the stand fits into the same mount. Therefore you pay, optionally, $30 for Apple's design flaw.

2) People don't post in forums on things like this. It is a call to support and a replacement/return. What would they say? "My iMac tipped over. Does anyone know of a software hack to fix the broken screen?" Just because he assumed it was glass doesn't make him uninformed. I'd bet MOST people don't know that the display is plastic. And most don't rub against their monitors to 'test em out'. hehehe

[solsun]

1) Yes, but most LCD makers buld the VESA Mount into the case and the stand fits into the same mount. Therefore you pay, optionally, $30 for Apple's design flaw.

2) People don't post in forums on things like this. It is a call to support and a replacement/return. What would they say? "My iMac tipped over. Does anyone know of a software hack to fix the broken screen?" Just because he assumed it was glass doesn't make him uninformed. I'd bet MOST people don't know that the display is plastic. And most don't rub against their monitors to 'test em out'. hehehe

1. Design flaw? I’d bet the 90% of people who will not use a VESA arm prefer the symetry of the iMac the way it is. Without a mount that they will never use interrupting the sleek line of the back of the iMac. I know I do.

2. Any and EVERY problem anyone has ever had with an Apple product is posted in the Apple discussions. If there is a problem or defect with anything Apple makes, you can bet you’d find someone who posted about it in those forums. Including an iMac prone to tipping. The reason you do not see anything on this subject is because it does not happen.

2b. True, Most people don’t rub their monitor, but any legitimate tech writer reviewing technical products should know that an LCD monitor is not made of glass. Also, a legitimate writer should not make assumptions, he should write and review only after testing the product. If he had done this, his whole earthquake theory would not have been published. Unless of course, his intent was to bash Apple regardless of the product. Based on all the innaccuracies of this completely uninformed article, I’m betting this was the case.

[squishy]

To Nueroking:
You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Any body can be anything on the internet. Why not go for emperor of the universe? Here is a simple problem for you oh great one...You are using illustrator (on a Mac) the tools menu has disappeared what do you do?
I have used Macs. It's been pretty much a positive experience. I must be one of the few lucky ones also. Have never had a virus...never reloaded an OS (not saying it doesn't happen). As for the price...where did you come up with $4000? Must have pulled that one out of your ass. The Dual G5'a are comparable to Dual Xeon's check the price on those. Start adding the extras that you get out of the box with a Mac to the cheap PC you are talking about...check the price again. OSX is rock solid. What application support are you talking about...MS, Adobe, Macromedia, Corel, Avid, Pro Tools, Maya (25% their market are Macs) etc, etc, etc. You also stated that you checked about the Vesa mount...you obviously didn't, be an adult, admit when you are wrong. The iMac is a computer...not an LCD screen. I'll bet the price of the mount you get for "Free" is rolled into the price of that LCD you are speaking of. You must have a ton of them on your wall. Let me see an earthquake will destroy structures but my Dell is still standing....he, he, he. Take another happy dot. You did not respond to the points made about viruses & such. Wonder why. No the security by obscurity argument doesn't hold, do some research. How often do you see a cheap PC than a Duel Xeon or an Alienware computer for that matter? Every fricking day. Got one in the office, brand new HP no one has touched it...the hardrive already failed. wah, wah, waaaaaaah. Is the Mac perfect, No. Nothing is. What denotes the quality of a product is the amount of imperfections. Never had a serius problem loading apps from OS7.whatever to the present. Maybe it was just user error that caused so many problems for you.

[neuroking]

Price?

Okay, let me ask you these questions.

1. Do you feel that your Windows machine is stable?

2. Do you feel that you are secure from spyware and malware on the internet?

3. How easy do you consider the process of intstalling software on your machine? On Mac OSX its as simple as clicking “agree” and “install”

4. How easy do you consider the process of un-installing software on your machine? On Mac OSX its as simple as dragging an application to the trash.

5. Do you feel that the applications on your machine work together and are tightly integrated into the OS? With OSX iLife, mail, address book, safari, everything is completely integrated and works stunningly together.

5. How many hours per month do you spend doing Admin on your computer? On Mac OSX, I click a button to “repair permissions“ after an install, nothing more.

6. How many drivers have you had to install to plug in devices such as printers, scanners, cameras, digital cameras etc? On Mac OSX... None.

Now look at your answers and I think you might find the reasons that people choose Mac. True, they may cost more initially, but in the long run, the total cost of ownership is proven to be considerably less. Plus, Macs hold their value extremely well. Check ebay and compare the resale value of used Macs compared to used PC’s.

1) Yes. Haven't crashed in a couple months. And I install/uninstall software constantly.

2) Yes. I have norton internet security, a couple spyware removal utilities that autorun once a week, and a firewall built into my router. I've gotten 1 virus in 2 years.

3) It is as easy as a Mac. Insert CD, installer runs, agree, install. But!!!! I can usually 'customize' the software if I choose advanced. Does the Mac have these advanced options? (just kidding - being sarcastic that the poster thinks this is an issue at all)

4) Very. Control panels -> Add/Remove Programs. Select program and click. Or msot software packages include a direct uninstall link in the start menu, so there isn't even any dragging!. Just click click! Soooooo much faster than on a Mac! (Again sarcasm - you think we have to go in and tweak the registry to remove a program?)

5a) Yes. Those programs written by MS take advantage of the OS internals to increase efficiency. Just like with Apple. Apple programs work very well together, and Apple obviously got fed up with the fact that all Mac programs for certain tasks sucked, so they wrote them themselves. Remember Now Up-To-Date? The standard in Mac PIM software? What a piece of dreck. Of course, do you liket he fact that you essentially rent software from Apple?

5b) By admin activities, what do you mean? I don't recall any 'admin' work recently. Setting up shared folders is just a right click and select 'Share'. Most of the maintenance is set to work automatically - defrag, AV, spybot, Norton, etc. If there is a problem, it's just a click or two.

6) In most cases none. Often vendors make additonal software just so they can say, "Ships with image editing software", etc. If the hardware is brand new, drivers might be installed, but it is transparent to the user in most cases. As a Mac user, and I WAS the same, I thought the issue with drivers was a big one. It isn't. Most of the time there are standards that each hardware conforms to. Those drivers are the ones easily ported to Macs, because it means that many devies can be used with them. This is part of the reason that hardware lags behind by several months for Macs. When new hardware is introduced, often vendors add some tweaks to drivers. Then the piece of hardware is not Mac compatible. As long as it is HID compiant, a 1284.4 compatible printer, WIA scanner, blah blah blah.... you're okay.

Obviously you haven't used a PC since Windows 3.11. This is literally the fight I had with people back during OS8. Of course people would ask more for a computer they paid more for initially, and that they really can't upgrade. Most PC users just build/buy another. PC users are more conscious fo things like bus speeds, chipsets, and graphics card performance. But the key is: only if they want to! Go ask an Apple Store rep what the response time on an Apple display is. Insist on it. They now list them. But the last generation of monitors they avoided the questions like the plague. Apple forces ignorance and indifference on their audiance. PC users can choose to accept ignorance or seek more info. Another example is the increased bus speed on the first generation XServe.


And a little toss out to the guy that talked stock prices.... The reason Apple is still alive is that one of the first things Jobs did at the helm as iCEO was ask Microsoft for a loan, something like $120 million (ok it was an 'investment'). THAT is why the stockholders didn't completely dump the company, and the business sector perked up its ears. And you should have bought teh stock when it was $9. You'd be laughing harder.

[Mr.Bob]

My God Rob, this article is beyond anything I've ever seen you write! What can I say? I'm speechless that you could even expect anyone who was objective to believe your point of view.
Do you actually get paid for your disinformation?
Good work if you can get it.

Some things to think about for 2005
1). Gross income $15 Billion
2). 10 million iPod Flash Players
3). 1.2 million Mac mini's sold
4). 1,000,000,000 iTunes sold (That's a billion BTW)
5). Immediate Domination of Movie Downloads

Your nemisis
Bob

[neuroking]

To Nueroking:
You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Any body can be anything on the internet. Why not go for emperor of the universe? Here is a simple problem for you oh great one...You are using illustrator (on a Mac) the tools menu has disappeared what do you do?
I have used Macs. It's been pretty much a positive experience. I must be one of the few lucky ones also. Have never had a virus...never reloaded an OS (not saying it doesn't happen). As for the price...where did you come up with $4000? Must have pulled that one out of your ass. The Dual G5'a are comparable to Dual Xeon's check the price on those. Start adding the extras that you get out of the box with a Mac to the cheap PC you are talking about...check the price again. OSX is rock solid. What application support are you talking about...MS, Adobe, Macromedia, Corel, Avid, Pro Tools, Maya (25% their market are Macs) etc, etc, etc. You also stated that you checked about the Vesa mount...you obviously didn't, be an adult, admit when you are wrong. The iMac is a computer...not an LCD screen. I'll bet the price of the mount you get for "Free" is rolled into the price of that LCD you are speaking of. You must have a ton of them on your wall. Let me see an earthquake will destroy structures but my Dell is still standing....he, he, he. Take another happy dot. You did not respond to the points made about viruses & such. Wonder why. No the security by obscurity argument doesn't hold, do some research. How often do you see a cheap PC than a Duel Xeon or an Alienware computer for that matter? Every fricking day. Got one in the office, brand new HP no one has touched it...the hardrive already failed. wah, wah, waaaaaaah. Is the Mac perfect, No. Nothing is. What denotes the quality of a product is the amount of imperfections. Never had a serius problem loading apps from OS7.whatever to the present. Maybe it was just user error that caused so many problems for you.

LOL! Then I'm emperor of the universe and you are the king of all space and time. The above IS true. Let me blow your mind for a sec. I have a degree in CS (nota tech school, but first tier overall), and I worked on brain computer interface (applying to grad school now to continue). Oh I MUST be lying!

And seeing as that I work for Design Technica, I can say with some authority that I am who I say I am. I'm sure I could throw out some questions to you, but you could just look them up on the internet.

And you can hit tab, which is standard across all adobe apps on all platforms. Unless you have a different toolbar in mind. And what does that say about Macs? Hey, how long did it take Quark to port Xpress to OSX? I honestly don't know. It was once neck and neck with Pagemaker, and disappeared from my radar soon after the OSX launch.

On viruses, I did respond. No one cares to write a virus for a Mac. It brings no 'creds'. No one writes spyware for Macs because it makes them no money. If they wanted to, they could. There are plenty on Windows, but that's the price I pay for using infinitely more software and games.

And a dual 2.5GHz G5 is not equal to a dual Xenon except in Apple's pre-engineered series of Photoshop filters on stage. More like a 3.6GHz P4, or Athlon 3600+. Here are some prices:

G5
Dual 2.5GHz, 2 GB DDR RAM, 2x250GB HDD, Geforce 6800 GT, BT module, kbd/ms.
$4700

Self built:
Athlon 3700+, mobo, case, 2GB DDR, 2x250GB, Geforce 6800 GT, BT, kbd/ms.
$1800

Of course that's $1900. Prices must have dropped! lol! AND, if you WANT you can get a different case, a different mobo, etc. So, say they upgrade the G5 chipset, can you just toss your mobo and slap your old components onto the new one?

And maybe, just maaaybe, we should look at UNITS DEFECTIVE VS UNITS OPERATIONAL. You will have more PC problems because there are MORE of them. Please try to have SOME sense of scale.

And you have OBVIOUSLY never used the PowerPC 604 systems. God those were bad. 7.5.2 was when it turned sour. Hourly crashes. They even changed the data rate on the serial ports without telling third party developers, so for a while, no printers worked with the newer Macs. I've had a SE/30, IIci, 6100, 7200, 9500/120, PB (wallstreet version), reached my limit at the G3. Hell I owned a Newton 2000! (Upgraded ti to a 2100 too!) I was paid $60/hour in high school to fix people's crappy Performas. The errors were all between the chair and the keyboard - after I left.

And just for kicks, here's a quick pic....

[solsun]

Well Neuroking, I have to agree to disagree. I have arguments for many of your responses, but simply do not have the time to continue this thread.

As I said, I do not bash Windows or Windows users, If you’re happy then fine, stick with it. (It is curious that you mentioned that if the iMac was VESA compliant, you’d be interested.)

Anyway, I just wanted to make the point that the original article by Enderle is filled with complete mis-information and is a perfect example of unresponsible journalism.

From a happy Mac user!

[Ioman]

Well said Solsun.

That is what the talk back section is all about. Its meant to spur discussion about opinions. Its a representation of the author's feelings, not the site as a whole.

I like both Apple and Windows based systems. I can appreciate them both for what they have to offer.

I really think people need to calm down and not get into these flaming wars.

Apple Vs. the rest
AMD Vs. Intel
Linux Vs. Windows
Nvidia Vs. ATI
Blu-ray Vs. HD-DVD
DVD-Audio Vs. SACD
and so forth....

[C?BS!]

Neuroking,

If you knew as much about finance as you claim to know about computers you'd know that Apple has about $12B cash in the bank. They don't owe Microsoft a cent. How much money has your analysis of the industry made for you in the last couple years? Me? I'm about to retire with my gains in Apple. Remember this mantra and recite it often: "It's the OS, Stupid."

I'm a unix geek from the 60's. I've programmed commercially in several languages, and had a program or two marketed nationally. I owned a VIC-20 before you could get memory expansion cartridges for them. Until October 2004 I built my own PCs and installed whatever version of Windows was current. For about 12 years I was responsible for installation and maintenance of personal computers and process control computers for a large industrial corporation. Some of these ran Windows, some Unix. Presently I'm a data analyst for a large industrial corporation.

In the few months prior to October 2004 I found myself spending about 8 hours a month adminning my PC. It sat next to my wife's G4 Mac on our home network, connected to a BSD server, another Mac, and through a router/firewall to our co-located server off site running SunOS. Funny, my wife's G4 never needed tweaking. Not that she could't do it if she needed to, having done cross-platform tech support for Symantec, cross-platform tech support for a nationally known backup software company, as well as a stint as a hardware tech for an Apple store in her younger days.

So one day she calls me and says there are two floor demo G5 Macs on sale at the local Apple store. I rushed right over and wrote a check for both of them. My PC lies unplugged and collecting dust in the corner.

My up-time is now 3 months, with software installs, thanks to OSX's Unix foundation. It's also that foundation that's responsible for the lack of virii written for OSX. Windows is an elephant on stilts, trying to be a giraffe. It was designed as a single user system with no need for security. Once in the front door you have the run of the house. On top of that, Microsoft invented the registry in an effort to keep people from pirating software by simply copying files from one computer to another. Now you needed an install disc. While they were at it they left a lot of doors and windows unlocked so that they could snoop and modify your OS whenever they pleased. The hackers, of course, found these holes in a very short time.

Unix has always been a multi-user system with built in security. Each file has its own permissions and *nobody* is routinely logged in as admin. If you could break into a Unix system (yes, it's been done, rarely) you are in a user account where you are typically not allowed access to the OS, or the ability to execute or install critical code. So what's the point?

On the other hand, the argument that OSX is below the radar of the hackers is not valid. Unix systems protect most of the financial information on earth. Hacking a bank's Unix system would be the ultimate prize. The fact that Unix discourages that effort so thoroughly bodes well for OSX.

In parting, just remember the mantra above. That's all that's important here. You can put money on it. I did and I won.

[neuroking]

In 1996, or was it 1997, Apple was on the brink of collapse. Then Steve Jobs returned. He axed the Newton, launched OS8 (remember the "get a new Mac for $99" ad campaign), and made a feigned attempt to get game developers with the sprockets libraries. MS gave them money to stay alive. I watched the keynote! The devs booed and booed. Here's a mention of it:
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/2550
Ahh there it is... $150 millions:
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1997/web.whatnext/hit.miss/miss07.html

And Windows XP, 2000, and NT are based on NT, which is a server OS, just like Unix. Did they do as good of a job at it? Hell no! But some of the arguments here are straight out of 1997. NT != Win3.11 Do Apple people still gripe about MS stealing the interface, too? I thought that one was dead.

As for virii, Macs are below the radar because it is usually Linux, BSD, and Sun servers holding bank info. And if they want to get to it, they can use any computer with a console. Every hacker knows there's a biiig difference between cranking out a virus and releasing it through anonymous means, and directly targetting a financial institution. Besides, the people interacting with those servers are most likely using Windows, and what better way to get a password than get control of a Windows computer and pretend you are an authorized emplyee?

VIC-20 users unite! That was my first comp when I was 5. Wrote my first two proggies on it... a 1 square battleship game and an ascii char doing jumping jacks. But I had the carts and tape recorder, so I could play the text games (I know what the hell 'chiggers' are from that vampire one!)

The scary thing is that I'm not anti-Mac or pro-Windows. I'm just a realist. If I want to use the majority of software and games out there, I go with Windows. If I want a more enjoyable user experience I go with Mac. If I want to program, I usually go to whatever platform I'm writing for (although my guilty pleasure is a love for CodeWarrior! Owned every version from 5-7 or 8). the problem I see is total Mac zealotry - and I used to have it too! And it's idiotic! If I could get a comparable Mac system for the same price as the PCs I build, I would get one. I simply can't. I can build a first rate PC for $1500. Nearly top of the line everything if I watch my purchases. Mac? Easily $4000. If I want to spend $1500, I get an iMac or lowest end PowerMac. That's nuts!

That's another thing. How much is it to upgrade from a single 1.8GHz G5 to a dual 2.5 GHz? No change in memory, case, etc. Just the CPU. What are the RAID options on the G5? The site says they have it. Where do I say I want RAID 1 preconfigured on my ultra-luxury level Mac? Looking at the configuration menus, they want $550 for 2x250GB drives. You can get those drives for $150 or less. I got my 2x250s and 2x200s for a total of $350-400. Sure apple is making money. Anyone that orders a comp from them is basically paying $2000 into their bottom line. Sweet deal.

Overall this thread is great! Everyone seems to have no problem saying the other camp is completely wrong.... about an opinion article! LOL!

[solsun]

[QUOTE=
That's another thing. How much is it to upgrade from a single 1.8GHz G5 to a dual 2.5 GHz? No change in memory, case, etc. Just the CPU. What are the RAID options on the G5? The site says they have it. Where do I say I want RAID 1 preconfigured on my ultra-luxury level Mac? Looking at the configuration menus, they want $550 for 2x250GB drives. You can get those drives for $150 or less. I got my 2x250s and 2x200s for a total of $350-400. Sure apple is making money. Anyone that orders a comp from them is basically paying $2000 into their bottom line. Sweet deal.

Overall this thread is great! Everyone seems to have no problem saying the other camp is completely wrong.... about an opinion article! LOL![/QUOTE]

You can save a significant amount of money by purchasing your extra Ram and hard drives elsewhere..

[dfdski]

Neuroking, intersting mix of mainly fact with some fiction. It compares to the original article in that respect.

Win2K was in fact NOT based on the NT kernal, at least not the desktop versions. MS was working on achieving this for that release, but like is their habit with virtually every OS release in the last 10 years, they underestimated what they could accomplish and dropped it.

XP was the first version of Windows where only the NT kernal was used. But I don't recall any XP server product - they jumped from Win2K Server to Win2K3.

Did MS give money to Apple to keep them alive? Yes - and it was MUCH needed. Did MS "steal" their UI from Apple? Only as much as Apple stole theirs from XPARC. I agree with you... this issue should be long dead - just like the MS $$$ gift to Apple should be too.

Now as to the idiotic religious flame wars.... I agree completely. You use/buy/develop to whatever suits you best!

Mr. Enderle - wow, where do I begin?

Apple’s PCs... are now largely based on IP from IBM and the FreeBSD community

Yes? Then I guess the inner layouts, peripherals, cooling designs and other hardware IP must have been developed by IMB. Just like the software UI, iLife components, Expose, soon-to-be-released Tiger components of Spotlight and Dashboard are IP of FreeBSD. Remember sir, YOU chose to include term "largely based" here.

I live in California, earthquake country... the new one places the weight too high and relies on a base that is too narrow.... Falling glass can be a huge hazard in a home late at night when you are trying to get the kids and family to safety during an earthquake.

Um, I see. You must be one of those people who base their computer purchases on such things as how earthquake-resistant they are. Oh, and surely you must also be on to put your computer monitor a minimum of 4 feet high so as to maximize the danger of "falling glass". Damn... the height you must hang those pictures in your home! Again sir, if you want to agrue the WORTH of a product, please stick to something relevent - or else be prepared for everyone to tune you out.

iPod Shuffle: Flash Players are Not Stupid after all

See? When you give valid fact-based arguments about something, you can drive a valid point home! I agree completely. Well almost... first Apple will sell a ton of these things, and I really don't believe Apple was not aware of the products shown at CES. They ain't dumb sir.

Yes they will likely sell more of these than they will iMacs. However, that will largely be because iMac sales will have declined as a result of shifting demand to the more popular, and more flexible, lower cost offering.

You care to make a wager on that? Not that more Mac Minis will be sold than iMacs, but that iMac sales will decline. Seems the iMac was *ahem* the most popular Mac in Apple's Q1. Right now, I'd wager that total Mac sales will rise by a fair amount, with the (stale) eMac losing the most sales to mini. Kinda like what the iBook is doing to the (momentarily stale) PB.

This is another step in what appears to be Apple’s sudden transition from Porsche vendor to VW vendor....

I like what you're saying here about premium companies and value offerings. I like the concept of your comparison, but think it's more like a Dodge deciding to market a Hemi engine to other auto shops. You still need to have a truck frame, suspension, and wheels - all of which cost money and depending on what you wish to use your pickup for may mean more than the engine....

The only risk is that it might upset Microsoft and the core group that has been incredibly supportive of Apple over the years.

Hmph. So very supportive. I'm still waiting for Outlook to be ported into Office for Mac.

Given the Linux community is fast at work cloning the Apple interface....

Oh? But I thought the Mac IP was "largely based" on FreeBSD!

...what was likely a blind side release embarrassing the Apple supporters in Microsoft.

LOL. Sure they were blind-sided. Sure, MS will be so embarrassed by Apple releasing an upgrade to one product(Keynote), packaging it with something MS no longer does much with (Publisher)... and releasing it ONLY for OS X... this will so embarrass MS that they'll take leave of their senses and make a business decision to no longer support Office for Mac. NOT!

Remember that Apple exists largely because Xerox didn’t want to take a risk with a graphical user interface and a mouse.

And remember that MS wouldn't exist if Apple hadn't popularized the Mac UI and IBM didn't make the strategic mistake to license out their OS to someone with the initials B.G. What does this trivial piece of history mean to your arguments?

[llbbl]

I'm confused.. NK = Rob ???

No couldn't be. I just looked up NK's birthday ... Rob doesn't look 24.

[llbbl]

anyone else notice how Apple immedately sold out of ipod shuffle days after annouceing the new product. WTF didn't they expect to sell 10 of these???

Why not make several hundred thousand and then annouce the product.

[techfreak]

anyone else notice how Apple immedately sold out of ipod shuffle days after annouceing the new product. WTF didn't they expect to sell 10 of these???

Why not make several hundred thousand and then annouce the product.

LOL they didn't sell out, they were never shippied to the stores!! Its the oldest marketing trick in the book. Announce a new product and then when its supposed to be released, tell everyone they are sold out - even though they were never in stock. Alienware was the master at doing this.

[techfreak]

Rob Enderle is awesome. His article hit the nail on the head. Steve Jobs is an ass that is really not that respected and while Apple makes some cool looking products, they are just paper weights to me. You can't really game with them and software is hard to find too.

The iPod shuffle is ridiculous, it doesn't have a screen or FM tuner, its nothing more than a birth control test applicator that plays music. COMMON people, you are wasting your money buying this product!! Switch to iRiver and find out what you are missing.

[C?BS!]

"Rob Enderle is awesome. His article hit the nail on the head. Steve Jobs is an ass that is really not that respected and while Apple makes some cool looking products, they are just paper weights to me. You can't really game with them and software is hard to find too."

It's obvious that neither you nor Mr. Enderle has any experience with OSX. Tell me, exactly which software is hard to find? Which games don't run on OSX?

"The iPod shuffle is ridiculous, it doesn't have a screen or FM tuner, its nothing more than a birth control test applicator that plays music. COMMON people, you are wasting your money buying this product!! Switch to iRiver and find out what you are missing."

Why would I want an FM tuner? So I can hear commercials? If I want a screen I can use my iPod mini, but who uses a screen when they're working out or jogging? Finally, if you had actually tried using iTunes you'd understand why anything else is a PITA.

[k2]

Unix has always been a multi-user system with built in security. Each file has its own permissions and *nobody* is routinely logged in as admin. If you could break into a Unix system (yes, it's been done, rarely) you are in a user account where you are typically not allowed access to the OS, or the ability to execute or install critical code. So what's the point?

On the other hand, the argument that OSX is below the radar of the hackers is not valid. Unix systems protect most of the financial information on earth. Hacking a bank's Unix system would be the ultimate prize. The fact that Unix discourages that effort so thoroughly bodes well for OSX.

that's some idealistic bull****. unix permissions are the same as windows, in fact group policies are just being introduced now (yay windows for having this first). the closet thing to policies on permissions is groups. wow, that's some hardcore file security.

unix systems are usually used due to licensing fees.

i'm far from an ms lover, i hate the company outright but i'm stuck in their world by being a sqlserver programmer / it gimp, but the fact is the us navy & army is run on windows, alot of banks in north america and europe have windows servers in place, and not because they're cheaper or less secure; windows does certain jobs really well.

as for hacking .. i'm not sure where you have gained your knowledge, but usually when you hack into a unix server you're gaining root from an overflow, not a user account; since you can't really run anything as a user. although some daemons/apps do execute as their own accounts .. they're rarely the gateway in.

everything else discussed here is pretty trite. shame.

[k2]

oh, and until recently (and this is a stretch) perl on the win32 platform has sucked. it still does sorta, but unix & perl is unstoppable with a good programmer for most server situations.

[makeinu]

They may be designed by the same firm, but they definitely dont have the same price or models. I believe this is the anology that Rob is making, instead of being a high prices / elite type (porsche) manufacturer, they are entering into the more budget conscious, for everyone(VW) realm.

Actually, as I read it, he is trying to say that Apple is replacing their current high end sales model (Porsche) with a low end sales model (VW), when it would be more appropriate to say that they are broadening their sales model, a la Volkswagen or BMW, by adding a lower end model to their high end lineup. So his analogy is still wrong.

And one last comment from me...

One thing Maccies like to point out is the vulnerability to spyware/viruses/malware. I find this fittingly ironic. The reason there's more is two-fold:
1) The writers want to obtain profit/recognition. Therefore, you want to use the most widely used OS out there. It's not that a virus for Macs would be any harder to make. It's jsut that fewer people, less than .001% of the world/market, care.
2) Apple has traditionally been cold toward its developers. The move to a UNIX based system was supposed to open the floodgates for programs to be written more easily, etc. If it's that easy, why WOULDN'T people write viruses/spyware/malware for Macs? Answer: it isn't. Another reasont aht 98%+ of Windows software isn't taken over to the Mac side.

Ask many developers why they don't write for Macs and the number one reason is, "It's not profitable." Period.

1) Malware for OS X is inherently harder to make, because of the inherent security advantages in the UNIX model

2) If Apple is so cold to developer's, then why do they make their development tools available free to anyone who asks, for free? Also, have you even looked at the amount of software, both commercial and open-source, that is available for OS X? Somehow I doubt it. Finally, how many developers have you spoken too personally? Or do you not count companies like Adobe, Macromedia, Quark, or the many dozens of major companies that make tons of money off of sales to the Mac community, or the hundreds of small time developers who also make money?



And a little toss out to the guy that talked stock prices.... The reason Apple is still alive is that one of the first things Jobs did at the helm as iCEO was ask Microsoft for a loan, something like $120 million (ok it was an 'investment'). THAT is why the stockholders didn't completely dump the company, and the business sector perked up its ears. And you should have bought teh stock when it was $9. You'd be laughing harder.

Actually, little known fact, that money came from an out of court settlement of a lawsuit regarding the appropriation of QuickTime code by Microsoft that no one talks about, thanks to the gag order. You can read about the allegations here. (http://news.com.com/2009-1023-5165177.html)

At any rate, although I don't honestly expect posters in forums to research a topic before posting, I can still be idealistic. However, I stand by my point that Mr. Enderle is paid to do journalism, not talk out of his hat, and therefore should. Even the most rudimentary of journalism classes, ie a junior high school class, teaches that.

[techfreak]

2) If Apple is so cold to developer's, then why do they make their development tools available free to anyone who asks, for free? Also, have you even looked at the amount of software, both commercial and open-source, that is available for OS X? Somehow I doubt it. Finally, how many developers have you spoken too personally? Or do you not count companies like Adobe, Macromedia, Quark, or the many dozens of major companies that make tons of money off of sales to the Mac community, or the hundreds of small time developers who also make money?

They give their development tools away for free to encourage developers to create software for their platform. Thats pretty obvious. If developers were knocking down the door, then I am sure good ole Steve would be collecting royalties and profiting from it.

As far as Adobe, Macromedia, Quark, are concerned, I think you just named all three software developers for the Apple LOL.

[techfreak]

It's obvious that neither you nor Mr. Enderle has any experience with OSX. Tell me, exactly which software is hard to find? Which games don't run on OSX?


Good question about the games, because I can't find any mac games at the places I buy my software from:

http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/categories/homepages/pcgames/default.asp

http://www.gamestop.com/default.asp?sect=2

Is there a secret Mac store where people buy games from?

Why would I want an FM tuner? So I can hear commercials? If I want a screen I can use my iPod mini, but who uses a screen when they're working out or jogging? Finally, if you had actually tried using iTunes you'd understand why anything else is a PITA.

Dude you are stupid. People need a screen so they know which song and the order its on. Not everyone can memorize the position of the 30+ songs on their flash player.

Check out the iRiver N series: http://www.iriveramerica.com/prod/ultra/n10/

They are very similar to the iPod shuffle and offer a screen, rechargeable lithium-ion battery back, voice recording and support for multiple audio formats.

Open your mind a little bit man.

http://www.iriveramerica.com/images/prod/ultra/n10/N10-105/N10-105-angle.jpg

[makeinu]

As far as Adobe, Macromedia, Quark, are concerned, I think you just named all three software developers for the Apple LOL.

I'll take that as a joke. :rolleyes:

[techfreak]

I'll take that as a joke. :rolleyes:

Glad to see an Apple user that has a sense of humor! You are OK bro! :P

I think the Mac mini us pretty tight, I would love to use one somewhere in the house. I just can't get past the iPod shuffle. I was really hoping Apple would make something from a NEW idea like they did with the original iPod. The Shuffle is just too stripped down and doesn't offer anything new in the way of ideas or concepts.

[dang]

This has all been an entertaining read. I'm very pleased that we all are having some good, lively discussions which is exactly what Talkback articles are supposed to do.

I used to be a mac head too, but I got into gaming and switched over. My last mac was a 8500/120, which I still own but dont have setup. Took me 8 years to pay of my college loan for that. UW switched from teaching programming classes on the mac to the pc the year I bought it :(

Anyways, I've always thought OS X rocked, and I would love to use it. The things that were holding me back were:
1) price of apple hardware. I couldnt justify spending over $1k for a new comp when I could build my own for much cheaper and still play games
2) software. Back when I wanted to get OS X so bad, it was still new and there were all sorts of rumors that Adobe was going to drop their support, etc. Games were few and far between and were released way later then when they were introduced on the pc.
3) Lack of good freeware/shareware. I'm not saying that there isnt freeware/shareware, but back when it first came out you had to do a lot of switching back to OS9 to run the apps you loved. That wasnt worth it to me.

The main reason was really the price though. I couldnt get past it.

That's changed now somewhat with the iMac Mini. I wanting to get one. It would replace my Suse dev box perfectly. I like linux, but I dont use anything but the shell because the gui's are just horrible. OS X is a godsend in that sense, and I wish they would release it to run on any hardware! But for now, a iMac Mini may just do the trick.

Anyone here remember Hotline? I remember helping alpha/beta test that for the kid that was developing it. We setup an IRC chat room for it, and eventually got bots to list all the different servers. That was fun back then.

[llbbl]

Dude you are stupid. People need a screen so they know which song and the order its on. Not everyone can memorize the position of the 30+ songs on their flash player.

Obviosly some people can't live without a screen and aren't thinking of all the different applications that iShuffle is marketed or should be marketed towards.

... If I want a screen I can use my iPod mini, but who uses a screen when they're working out or jogging? ....

If you don't like the song just skip to you find one that you do. It's like discovering 10 dollars in your pant pocket, sometimes not knowing, will still provide moments of joy.

LOL they didn't sell out, they were never shippied to the stores!! Its the oldest marketing trick in the book. Announce a new product and then when its supposed to be released, tell everyone they are sold out - even though they were never in stock. Alienware was the master at doing this.

I agree it is a marketing ploy, but they are saying that they are backordered if you order it through the website.

[neuroking]

Wow! Some good stuff here.

First, the comment on games. Really, do I have to start listing the games? Fine. My favorite right now are City of Heroes, Half-Life 2, Tribes: Vengeance, thinking of getting WoW. I know how Mac games worked in the past - aside from anything Carmack related, you wait 1-3 years for the game to be ported by a third party that dissolves after 6 months. Is it still like that?

Apple's basic programming tools are free, since they NEED more doftware and know it. If they had 98% of the market, they'd be charging. Not sure how it is now, but a full membership to teir developer community, if you're not a student, was around $600-800.

And the reason malware isn't made for the Mac is ENTIRELY financial. Not because it's Unix based.

As for Dang's comment, there used to be some great shareware/freeware. I'm sure it's still out there. The thing is, they're rare little gems. But when you find them, they're great.

LOOOOOOOVED Hotline. All those 'backup servers'.... lol!

For the Apple money thing... most financial analysts were predicting the fall of Apple in months. The show of MS's involvement bolstered inverstor support, and at the same time helped MS with future anti-trust suits ("Hey! We foster competition!") Either way, it's not good when losing one application (MS Office) can seal your fate. Apple knew it, so the legal battles began.

As for the Windows 2000 not being NT, here's from the MS History site:
"More than just the upgrade to Windows NT Workstation 4.0, Windows 2000 Professional was also designed to replace Windows 95, Windows 98, and Windows NT Workstation 4.0 on all business desktops and laptops. Built on top of the proven Windows NT Workstation 4.0 code base, Windows 2000 added major improvements in reliability, ease of use, Internet compatibility, and support for mobile computing."

And as for buying upgrades for Macs, part of the problem with RAID is that you would ahve to configure the RAID options at installation time. If you get a Mac with the min HDD or 1x250GB drive, and buy another for RAID, you have to reinstall the OS. And the point of the quoted block was that you have limited upgradability in Macs (like CPU, mobo)

What's weird is that a DirectTV ad just came on the TV, and it totally reflects this thread. Satellite in the past was very error prone, expensive to buy, and expensive to maintain. Cable was easy, cheap, and had fewer options. Now....

[makeinu]

Thanks, techfreak.

I used to be a real ass on forums. Eventually I learned to loosen up.

You do realize how overpriced the iRiver is in comparison to the Shuffle, don't you though? I mean, for the same price as the smallest iRiver, I can get 1 GB of music and data storage space (by using it as a thumb drive), instead of 128 MB of music only, and the only thing that i sacrifice is a hard to read screen, difficult controls, and built in voice recording?

I have an iPod already, and I will get another because the one that I currently have is too small for my music needs, except for one task. Exercising. When I exercise, I love to have my tunes, but my iPod is just too big. I never look at the screen, because I just don't care at that time, and I don't work out for long enough that I need so much music as the mini provides.

So, whatever anyone thinks of it, the Shuffle does have a market niche, and Apple just rewrote the rules of the game. Again.

[neuroking]

Um, unless you get a 1GB Sandisk Cruzer Sport for $50 on sale, and then the mp3 add on for $30 more (and I think it ahs an LCD). Oops, Apple just rewrote the same rules, but with curlier script.

[squishy]

And you can hit tab, which is standard across all adobe apps on all platforms. Unless you have a different toolbar in mind. And what does that say about Macs? Hey, how long did it take Quark to port Xpress to OSX? I honestly don't know. It was once neck and neck with Pagemaker, and disappeared from my radar soon after the OSX launch.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope. I wasn't refering to the functionality of the app. The tool bar is gone..Not functioning. Try again.
You can boast about all the medals on your chest but it still doesn't change the fact that you are misinformed or (gasp) dead wrong.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On viruses, I did respond. No one cares to write a virus for a Mac. It brings no 'creds'. No one writes spyware for Macs because it makes them no money. If they wanted to, they could. There are plenty on Windows, but that's the price I pay for using infinitely more software and games.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Creds? Any 16 year old with a cheap PC & a little knowledge can cause millions of dollars worth of damage, it's ametuer hour out there. "No one wrires spyware for the Mac because it makes them no money" What? What is the purpose of spyware. To track movement on the internet...I pretty much use the same internet that you do.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G5
Dual 2.5GHz, 2 GB DDR RAM, 2x250GB HDD, Geforce 6800 GT, BT module, kbd/ms.
$4700

Self built:
Athlon 3700+, mobo, case, 2GB DDR, 2x250GB, Geforce 6800 GT, BT, kbd/ms.
$1800
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought you were smart enough not to buy RAM from Apple, guess not. You also have other options for hardrives, bluetooth, etc. So you took the time to check for the best prices you could get for the PC but neglected to do that on the Macintosh side. Then of course you pick all the top of the line Options, etc. Is that a Dual Athlon? I was comparing Apples prices to other vendors....Yes dual Xeons. Most people do not build there own computers. Since you did build it would you take $1800 dollars to sell that system? With at least a year of hardware support? Firewire? Optical Drives? Software? If you added these you didn't say so.
Actually I have used Sytem 7 & Performas...how long before the problems you spoke of were fixed. Are you trying to tell me that Windows never hit it's share of bumps in the road...again, take another happy dot. I would be interested in seeing some figures on hardware failure by percentage...if you have any feel free to post them. You are not a typical PC (of any type) user but you do have the typical arogant IT attitude.

[C?BS!]

First, if Windows has the same permissions as unix then why is it that the average 12 year old can access someone's Windows PC over the net and change their registry, install software, reconfigure their OS and browser, steal their addressbook, install a keylogger and copy all the files on their hard drive? Do you think there's the remotest possibility of them doing that on a unix system?

About games...you know, if you go to a website called "PC Games" you're probably not going to find much there for Macs. Try this link, for one example:

http://www.madmacgames.com/games/

But frankly, if Macintosh computers didn't exist I'd be going to some form of Unix/Linux. I'm just totally fed up with MS after 25 years of dealing with their arrogance and incompetence. If I want to play games there's a PS2 in the living room. And fin ally, I actually prefer PINE to Outlook. It's not as pretty, but it doesn't assume I'm an idiot either.

[squishy]

In 1996, or was it 1997, Apple was on the brink of collapse. Then Steve Jobs returned. He axed the Newton, launched OS8 (remember the "get a new Mac for $99" ad campaign), and made a feigned attempt to get game developers with the sprockets libraries. MS gave them money to stay alive. I watched the keynote! The devs booed and booed. Here's a mention of it:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually they bought 150 million of non-voting stock. In return Apple made IE there default browser & probably a few other things went on behind closed doors that you have no idea about. It was a business deal. Did it help Apple, sure. Did it save Apple...nope. Apple wasn't going out of business the next day. Most things that I read stated they probably could have lasted another 5 years in the state they were in. There were also stories on the web at the time that MS lifted code from Quicktime to get media player to actually play video without being jerky and the money was to avoid a lawsuit (I think I read this article at the register). MS was also going through antitrust proceedings. Some say, Apple staying alive was a way for them to say look there is still competition in the computer industry. Anybody can speculate just like you. Truth is none of us know what that deal was about. Like most of the arguments that you have posted here your analysis is based on speculation & half truths.

[techfreak]

Squishy if you really think there is no money is Spyware, then you have lost all credibility to EVERYTHING you have said in this forum. Seriously.

My understanding was that Microsoft helped Apple to keep them alive so they would not have a natural Monopoly at the time. Remember the whole "Microsoft may be split into seperate companies" crap that was all over the news? Not sure about the validity of this though.

Apple marketshare is dropping: http://www.macobserver.com/article/2004/10/29.6.shtml
This is from a mac site and only 6 months old.

Here is more food for thought:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ibd/050111/general_1.html

"Apple shares fell 6% as the news failed to inspire investors."

"Analysts are forecasting a 129% increase in earnings per share, to 32 cents, in the March quarter. That would mark seven straight triple-digit increases in EPS year over year for Apple. But analysts expect declining double-digit increases for the two quarters after that -- EPS growth of 88% in the June quarter and 41% in the September quarter."

It will be interesting to see where Apple goes. I hope they succeed - honestly.

Antoher good read I found: http://weeklywire.com/ww/08-18-97/alibi_brave.html

[makeinu]

Um, unless you get a 1GB Sandisk Cruzer Sport for $50 on sale, and then the mp3 add on for $30 more (and I think it ahs an LCD). Oops, Apple just rewrote the same rules, but with curlier script.

So, you counter with a product that doesn't exist? From a company whose 1 GB flash mp3 player is a) larger, b)more expensive, and c) much harder to use? Oh, and PriceGrabber lists the best price on the mp3 add on as $43, before shipping. So, even your alternative, using two pieces of kit, still has the same problems.

Geez, and you folks say Mac users drink the Kool-Aid.

See, here's the deal. Apple has done, AGAIN, what they always do. They have entered a market that they previously dismissed as worthless with a product that solves the very problems that make the market worthless. So, yeah, maybe it is just curlier script. Guess what? That's what ultimately sells. Does fit and finish mean nothing to you? How about efficiency and simplicity in design? Does it occur to you that sometimes fewer features makes a better product?

No. Of course not.

Oh, and repeat the security through obscurity myth as long as you like. It doesn't change the facts. UNIX is now, always has been, and always will be more secure than Windows.

[makeinu]

Apple marketshare is dropping: http://www.macobserver.com/article/2004/10/29.6.shtml
This is from a mac site and only 6 months old.

If you read the entire article at TMO, you'll see the bit about the iMac shortage, which was admittedly a big bone up on their part. However, I think that they can be forgiven for attempting to clear inventory channels before a major product revision, which the new iMac G5 is, and also for not anticipating, um, unanticipated delays, maybe?

Apple's marketshare (http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q105data_sum.pdf) is rising. (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/jan/12results.html) Apple saw a 26% increase in CPU sales year on year, whereas Dell was second in percentage increase, at 13%. Admittedly, that's a larger number of Dells, but that doesn't discount the fact that market share is actually going up.

Those are from Apple's quarterly earnings report for last quarter, and are only a week or so old. Expect the Mac mini to spur those numbers higher.

And the bit about the stock prices: it's a well known fact that happens every single MacWorld. Analysts can speculate all they like as to why, but they don't actually know. They do tend to speak out of their namesake orifices.

[neuroking]

So, you counter with a product that doesn't exist? From a company whose 1 GB flash mp3 player is a) larger, b)more expensive, and c) much harder to use? Oh, and PriceGrabber lists the best price on the mp3 add on as $43, before shipping. So, even your alternative, using two pieces of kit, still has the same problems.

Geez, and you folks say Mac users drink the Kool-Aid.

See, here's the deal. Apple has done, AGAIN, what they always do. They have entered a market that they previously dismissed as worthless with a product that solves the very problems that make the market worthless. So, yeah, maybe it is just curlier script. Guess what? That's what ultimately sells. Does fit and finish mean nothing to you? How about efficiency and simplicity in design? Does it occur to you that sometimes fewer features makes a better product?

No. Of course not.

Oh, and repeat the security through obscurity myth as long as you like. It doesn't change the facts. UNIX is now, always has been, and always will be more secure than Windows.

Sorry Lexar, not sandisk...
http://www.lexar.com/jumpdrive/jd_sport.html
http://www.lexar.com/mp3/jg_mp3.html

And $60 for 1 GB:
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=507420&store=ecost&source=ECOSTCJ&adcampaign=email,ECOSTCJ
And $40 for mp3 ability:
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=382713

Good one! And it has an LCD :) Not sure how you can say it's 'harder to use' since you haven't used it, and it is just mounted as a mass storage device. Drag and Drop anyone?

And 'simpler' isn't better if you care to tweak. If you want to be spoon fed any BS someone else wants to shovel, enjoy!

Not security through obscurity. Insecurity through popularity. Enjoy the, what 2%? market share. I'm sure people like you do WONDERS for the Mac community. Shooting their mouths off at every article that doesn't claim Jobs to be the Second Coming, and the Mac mini the tool of the Lord shall be smitten from the Earth! Come up with any excuse you want. 2%. Back into your corner, and feel grateful the Windows community bothers to port anything to an OS populated by asses like you.

Edit: My Bad... 3%! Wooooooooo!

[neuroking]

In 1996, or was it 1997, Apple was on the brink of collapse. Then Steve Jobs returned. He axed the Newton, launched OS8 (remember the "get a new Mac for $99" ad campaign), and made a feigned attempt to get game developers with the sprockets libraries. MS gave them money to stay alive. I watched the keynote! The devs booed and booed. Here's a mention of it:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually they bought 150 million of non-voting stock. In return Apple made IE there default browser & probably a few other things went on behind closed doors that you have no idea about. It was a business deal. Did it help Apple, sure. Did it save Apple...nope. Apple wasn't going out of business the next day. Most things that I read stated they probably could have lasted another 5 years in the state they were in. There were also stories on the web at the time that MS lifted code from Quicktime to get media player to actually play video without being jerky and the money was to avoid a lawsuit (I think I read this article at the register). MS was also going through antitrust proceedings. Some say, Apple staying alive was a way for them to say look there is still competition in the computer industry. Anybody can speculate just like you. Truth is none of us know what that deal was about. Like most of the arguments that you have posted here your analysis is based on speculation & half truths.

Well then - would you care to define 'bailout'? Because every story at the time called it that. Bah, I'll save you the trouble. Probably use some weirdo Mac dictionary that defines it as lollipos and fuzzy sweaters.

The financial rescue of a faltering business or other organization. Government guarantees for loans made to Chrysler Corporation constituted a bailout.

Source: Wall Street Words: An A to Z Guide to Investment Terms for Today's Investor

Go ahead. Search for "Apple bailout Microsoft"

LOL, and I just read at the time, they had 5% of the market (CNN article). Oh and from the article:
"Apple executives claimed it was the only way to save the beleaguered company."
Key words: Apple executives

One more. Wall Street Journal wrote "the company remains in such serious condition that many retailers, software developers and customers have already given it up for dead." I was a die hard during this era, and I agree with this sentiment.

How many times do you want to shoot yourself in the foot before you limp away?

[llbbl]

Here is a good article on the iShuffle.

http://www.macnewsworld.com/story/On-Demand-Playlist-Not-an-Option-with-IPod-Shuffle-39831.html

The biggest problem for Apple will be educating buyers to understand what the shuffle does and doesn't do. If I were in charge of iPod marketing, I'd be especially concerned that first-time buyers who get a shuffle won't fully appreciate the magic of iPod, because they'll miss the joy of getting the music they want at the exact moment they want to hear it

[dang]

Is that a Dual Athlon? I was comparing Apples prices to other vendors....Yes dual Xeons.

Comparing Xeons to a consumer mac is not exactly realistic. I dont know a single person that has a xeon as a desktop computer. They are used in servers.

Now, comparing dual p4's or dual athlons is more realistic.

As for the windows security issue compared to linux. The main reason is on linux systems, people generally dont log into root. They make a normal, restrictued user account, then use something like sudo to give permissions to do certain, admin type things. On windows, many people dont bother creating user accounts. They create Admin accounts right off the bat and use those as their normal, daily account. That's the big no no. They should instead be creating an admin account for administration purposes only, making the password an extremely good one. Then, create a normal restricted user account for their daily email, game playing, surfing net type deal. That way, if they went to a site that had malware, the malware wouldnt run successfully since the user account they are logged in with doesnt have permissions to write to registry, etc.

[k2]

a buddy of mine runs a dual xeon setup at home. it's not uncommon in the graphic industry. mac's are used by the oldschool mindset people. there's really no way you can compare a dual g5 to a pimped dual xeon 3.x ghz system for any type of work other than dvd authoring. that's where macs shine, but that's because they have better apps for the authoring at the consumer level. prosumer apps are about equal.

[Bill Eccles]

Rob,

There are some factual errors in your article. Thought you might want to hear about them so that you can speak more correctly next time.

My list is not comprehensive. I just chose the most egregious errors to point out. I also ignored grammatical and spelling errors as those would be caught by a good editor.

Bill

Error 1: "The first small form factor Apple, the Apple Cube, was as beautiful as it was difficult to set up and use. It was a nightmare of bad thermal engineering and had horrible reliability."

The first small-form-factor Apple was the Macintosh, introduced in 1984, as it was significantly smaller than any other personal computer offering. (Note that I said "personal computer" and not "PC" as it was also smaller than the Apple II and III.) The Cube, on the other hand, was no more compact than any other PC by the time you added in the monitor and other peripherals. It just had a unique form factor and, despite your assertions to the contrary, is a superb example of convection cooling. And please cite a source for your reliability statement. The two that I own have been running since the days that they were bought, new.

Error 2: "Over time this has changed somewhat, branded companies like Dell, HP, Gateway and Sony go through a great deal of trouble to insure the out of box experience but few come close to what you can get with the iMac or iPod."

OK, partially true since you do admit that the other manufacturers don't match Apple's out of box experience. But apparently you haven't unpacked a Dell recently. Please take a moment to do so and then recognize that these manufacturers (Dell, anyway) haven't put any effort into the out of box experience; simply, there is none.

Error 3: Apple's iPod is "...a product largely based on a third party offering called Portal Player. Apple’s PCs, which at one time were largely based on Apple intellectual property are now largely based on IP from IBM and the FreeBSD community...."

Until you actually crack open a Mac and have a look, I'd suggest you refrain from baseless assertions which imply that such reliance, were it true, is a Bad Thing. Count the chips--hardware here, Rob--that say "Apple" on them and be amazed at the amount of IP in there that belongs to Apple. And it is all Apple IP which ties this hardware and the FreeBSD base together in a very user-friendly, tightly-integrated way. In the Wintel world, none of the major manufacturers relies on anything other than the current state-of-the-art kit of chips (do the terms "North Bridge" and "South Bridge" ring a bell here?) and some loose glue sticking it all together. To their credit, it drives their cost of production down considerably because they don't have to invent anything, and they rely on Microsoft to do the user interface end of things for them. Net result? Cheap hardware, poor integration, bad user experience.

Error 4: iMac's front panel is glass and is inherently unstable, so earthquakes and iMacs make for bad karma.

When you can't criticize anything else, criticize a product's earthquake performance. Until you have a shaker table or earthquake simulator, I suggest you stay away from gut-level physics. It's unbecoming of a "consultant."

(And since when is a pair of people a "group?" Oh, when you want to write off your internet connection. Good idea!)

Error 5: "Let’s call it an 'oops' and leave it at that because 50% of the market (in volume not revenue) remains flash based and with flash capacity now hitting 4 gigabytes in some form factors it is clear the mini-hard-disk players are increasingly at risk."

Here, the problem is a disjointed set of statements that, taken together, don't mean anything substantive. Yes, the flash market is big (though corporations do prefer to talk in revenue because revenue spends). And, yes, the hard-disk player will succumb to the ever-present better/faster/cheaper mantra. But you imply, then, that Apple (and others) have to attack this flash market because the hard disk player technology is going to disappear, which doesn't follow. What's more likely is that there will be a low-end market and a high-end market, regardless of underlying technology, and that maybe--just maybe--the high end will fall slowly to approach the low-end market.

Error 6: "Apple’s sudden transition from Porsche vendor to VW..."

Apple never sold the Porsche of computers. They were never the high-end performance machines that Apple would want you to believe they are. (Sacrilege!) They're damned fast, yes, but they're more about comfort, fit, finish... the details... more like BMW or Mercedes than Porsche. Anyway, have you driven a VW lately? They have fit and finish and attention to detail that far exceed that of comparably-priced autos. But if I were to continue your bad metaphor, what you miss is that Dell, HP, et al, offer the Pontiac Gran Prix or Ford Taurus of the computer market. They have lots of buttons, an impossibly cluttered user interface, and an engine, and they'll get you where you need to go. But now Apple is selling the VW of computers, and that's a Good Thing. It has the fit and finish of a Macintosh, but is available at near-commodity prices, and I am indeed comparing Apples to apples.

Please read <http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/editors/2005/01/miniapplesandoranges/index.php>.

[techfreak]

Haha Bill, seriously that was the worst post in here. You obviously are very good at english because your grammar and spelling are top knotch. But how do you expect to "correct" someones facts when you post opinion statements of your own. You have not posted anything factual, no links to prove anything otherwise.

I find it odd that Apple lovers take everything out of context. Rob's article is an OPINION on the company; It is not a research paper and everyone is taking it way out of context by trying to critisize it based on symantecs. I frequent these forums a lot and I have NEVER seen people get in such an uproar over an opinion article.

So Rob doesn't like Apple - big freaking deal. A lot of people don't like Apple, about 95% to be exact.

And for the record, the Apple Cube was sweet looking, but it was not reliable. And it was prone to "cracking' where the screws went into the case.

From a mac site: http://www.macuser.co.uk/macuser/news/24525/apple-pulls-plug-on-cube-to-make-way-for-newlook-imac.html

"Last September, Apple fended off criticism that the Cube was marred by hair-thin cracks in its casing, claiming they were blemishes formed through the normal course of manufacturing. As the Cube began to suffer from poor sales, Apple turned to rebates, offering £250 off a Cube with a monitor. In February Apple introduced a new model at a lower price point with the addition of a CD-rewriteable drive. In neither case did Cube sales dramatically rise."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/15/apple_kills_cube/

"Hardware problems - most notably a heat-sensitive on-off switch that could power up or shut down the system on warm days - plagued the machine from the start. The Cube's much-touted near-silent, fan-free operation proved to be untrue for anyone who bought the version with an ATI Radeon graphics card, which included... er... a fan."

Looks like Rob was right again. I guess when you are so passionate about a company like you folks are, you just don't see the truth. If Apple was so great, there would be more of them. The good thing is that Apple is on the right track again.

[llbbl]

holy frik . now you guys are debating Apple(IBM) versus Intel processors.

[k2]

The Cube, on the other hand, was no more compact than any other PC by the time you added in the monitor and other peripherals. It just had a unique form factor and, despite your assertions to the contrary, is a superb example of convection cooling.

the cube is smaller than an itx form factor, so technically he's correct. monitors and peripherals do not count when talking about the size of a computer.

[Bill Eccles]

Yeah, now that I think of it, all of what I said is just as much BS and opinion as Rob's is.

Problem is, nobody's going to quote me in the same places that they'll quote Rob as if what he says is gospel. Go figure.

Has anybody read his profile on his website? Apparently, his wife might know a thing or two about marketing for Intel--does anybody see a conflict of interest here?--but he's done nothing more in the past umpteen years than merely opine about stuff and get paid for it. That's a good gig! Way to go, Rob!

(I gotta' look into this "Group" thing. "The Eccles Group." Hey, that has a nice ring to it. Maybe then someone will quote me, too, as if I know what I'm talking about, and then I, too, could write off my internet connection...

...and computer purchases...

...and travel to trade shows....

Oh, this is sounding eggsssssellent! Smithers! Take a memo!)

[makeinu]

Sorry Lexar, not sandisk...
http://www.lexar.com/jumpdrive/jd_sport.html
http://www.lexar.com/mp3/jg_mp3.html

And $60 for 1 GB:
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=507420&store=ecost&source=ECOSTCJ&adcampaign=email,ECOSTCJ
And $40 for mp3 ability:
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=382713

Good one! And it has an LCD :) Not sure how you can say it's 'harder to use' since you haven't used it, and it is just mounted as a mass storage device. Drag and Drop anyone?

And 'simpler' isn't better if you care to tweak. If you want to be spoon fed any BS someone else wants to shovel, enjoy!

Not security through obscurity. Insecurity through popularity. Enjoy the, what 2%? market share. I'm sure people like you do WONDERS for the Mac community. Shooting their mouths off at every article that doesn't claim Jobs to be the Second Coming, and the Mac mini the tool of the Lord shall be smitten from the Earth! Come up with any excuse you want. 2%. Back into your corner, and feel grateful the Windows community bothers to port anything to an OS populated by asses like you.

Edit: My Bad... 3%! Wooooooooo!

OK, I'll give you the price. I say my point still stands. I don't have to have handled every mp3 player on the market to be clever enough to look at the controls and say "Wow, that'd be a ***** to use." Obviously, you missed the point, however, since I was not referring to the ability to fill the thing. But whatever.

And exactly what tweaks are you going to do on an mp3 player? [Edited to fix a typo.]

Insecurity through popularity? WTF? That's the best twist yet. Very original. Neatly avoids the fact that Windows is insecure through it's very design, and skips over the completely disproven security through obscurity myth, while still managing to say the exact same thing. You amaze me. I stand in awe of you and your semantics manipulation.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I don't shoot my mouth off at every article, as you suggest. Only the ones where the author has such a complete case of rectal cranial inversion that he's looking out his own mouth, as Rob Enderle always does. I'm still of the school of thought that journalists have a responsibility to get their facts straight, even in an op-ed piece.

So, whatever, ass. Back to your corner and spare us all the personal attacks that are the surest sign of the small minded.

[techfreak]

Yeah, now that I think of it, all of what I said is just as much BS and opinion as Rob's is.

Problem is, nobody's going to quote me in the same places that they'll quote Rob as if what he says is gospel. Go figure.

Has anybody read his profile on his website? Apparently, his wife might know a thing or two about marketing for Intel--does anybody see a conflict of interest here?--but he's done nothing more in the past umpteen years than merely opine about stuff and get paid for it. That's a good gig! Way to go, Rob!

(I gotta' look into this "Group" thing. "The Eccles Group." Hey, that has a nice ring to it. Maybe then someone will quote me, too, as if I know what I'm talking about, and then I, too, could write off my internet connection...

...and computer purchases...

...and travel to trade shows....

Oh, this is sounding eggsssssellent! Smithers! Take a memo!)


haha you rock Bill, that was a fun read. I am glad you were able to lighten up.

Do I agree with Robs article? Not all of it, but I take it with a grain of salt. There are a lot of articles on the web I don't agree with. I am not going to murder the writer over it though! lol

[makeinu]

Good one! And it has an LCD :)

Oh, BTW, it's always great forum etiquette, and a true sign of intelligence, to not read a post before you comment on it.

When I exercise, I love to have my tunes, but my iPod is just too big. I never look at the screen, because I just don't care at that time, and I don't work out for long enough that I need so much music as the mini provides.

This is the market the iPod shuffle is aimed at.

Education is a wonderful thing. You should try it sometime.

Whoops, silly hypocritical me, resorting to personal attacks. Darn.

[k2]

i like the shuffle, i'll probably grab a 1gb version for when i'm snowboarding/mtb'n. i don't really care about a screen that eats battery life. the name's a little misleading for n00bs i guess, but it's marketing.

[squishy]

Tech Freak Said:
Dude you are stupid. People need a screen so they know which song and the order its on. Not everyone can memorize the position of the 30+ songs on their flash player.
Check out the iRiver N series: http://www.iriveramerica.com/prod/ultra/n10/

--------------------------------------------------------------
This link led me to a player that cost $249 with 512 megs of memory...how is that price competitive with the iPod shuffle 512 megs $99. You're a rocket scientist. You & the emperor of the universe should get a room. In fact their cheapest player is $149 & only has 128 megs of flash memory. What exactly is the point you are trying to make? Read the fine print Einstein.
*Up to 17 hours using Windows Media format at 64 kbps. You encode your music at 64 kbps? How does the interface work? Can I see more than when song at once? If not how do I remember what order the songs are in?

[squishy]

ToTechFreak:
Squishy if you really think there is no money is Spyware, then you have lost all credibility to EVERYTHING you have said in this forum. Seriously.

I never said that go back & read the post I responded to, then read mine. It's nice to see someone disagree in a civil manner. Even if I did say that how does that make all the other opinions invalid? If your mind contains the worlds knowledge please share it with the rest of us.
The experts have been saying that Apple has been going out of business for 20 years...maybe someday they will be right. I've used both Mac & PCs. I prefer Macs. No big deal. I use the Mac to make money. If it were a total piece of junk, as the nueroking seems to think, I would not be using it. I am not some kind of zealot. I made an informed decision. If the system were junk I would not be using them. Time is money. Why is that so hard to understand for some people. Use what you prefer. For every article you post I can find a counter point of view. What I can't understand for the life of me is why you or anyone else would give two ****s. It almost seems as if you are being defensive. I hope that Apple does well also. There is plenty of room for different business models. The more the merrier.

[squishy]

To Nueroking:
If I shot myself in the foot I would be shooting you in the a** & probably just missing your head. So $150 million dollars saved Apple. Like I said it helped but, it didn't save Apple. I thought the iMac saved Apple according to plenty of articles on the web. The Chrysler bailout was much different, you & I paid for that. I don't think we got off that cheap. Why the hostile tone. Run out of hand lotion? You can keep the lollipop. By the way you still have not addressed most of the other points I made.

[neuroking]

Oh, BTW, it's always great forum etiquette, and a true sign of intelligence, to not read a post before you comment on it.


Good job Commander Smart. Next time check the links. Otherwise you would know I was referring to the LCD screen on the Lexar mp3 player, not the lack of one on the Shuffle.

[techfreak]

ToTechFreak:
Squishy if you really think there is no money is Spyware, then you have lost all credibility to EVERYTHING you have said in this forum. Seriously.

I never said that go back & read the post I responded to, then read mine. It's nice to see someone disagree in a civil manner. Even if I did say that how does that make all the other opinions invalid? If your mind contains the worlds knowledge please share it with the rest of us.
The experts have been saying that Apple has been going out of business for 20 years...maybe someday they will be right. I've used both Mac & PCs. I prefer Macs. No big deal. I use the Mac to make money. If it were a total piece of junk, as the nueroking seems to think, I would not be using it. I am not some kind of zealot. I made an informed decision. If the system were junk I would not be using them. Time is money. Why is that so hard to understand for some people. Use what you prefer. For every article you post I can find a counter point of view. What I can't understand for the life of me is why you or anyone else would give two ****s. It almost seems as if you are being defensive. I hope that Apple does well also. There is plenty of room for different business models. The more the merrier.


Rock on!!

Wanna get a beer with me? I will buy! I am tired of fighting and don't care anymore. :cheers

[neuroking]

OK, I'll give you the price. I say my point still stands. I don't have to have handled every mp3 player on the market to be clever enough to look at the controls and say "Wow, that'd be a ***** to use." Obviously, you missed the point, however, since I was not referring to the ability to fill the thing. But whatever.

Aaand you have to handle very mp3 player out there to find such advanced features as... play/pause, next/last track, and random? How are ANY other mp3 payers out there a "*****" to use? They all work the same way. Usually the 'advanced' features are halfway hidden, so if you want to just play mp3s, there's no problem. And again, how is drag and drop a ***** to use? Isn't that the basis of the MacOS? Plug the flash drive into the USB port, the contents pop up, drag files, done (or in WMP, just have a playlsit sync).

And exactly what tweaks are you going to do on an mp3 player? [Edited to fix a typo.]

Display tweaks (scrolling direction, speed, information), user configurable EQ, built in recording bit rates, sleep timer, etc.

Insecurity through popularity? WTF? That's the best twist yet. Very original. Neatly avoids the fact that Windows is insecure through it's very design, and skips over the completely disproven security through obscurity myth, while still managing to say the exact same thing. You amaze me. I stand in awe of you and your semantics manipulation.

Why thank you. Now tell everyone how Windows is insecure based on its very design... Go ahead. And teh phrase 'security through obscurity' is a statement, not an argument. Obscurity is more secure than popularity, hence my little jingle.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I don't shoot my mouth off at every article, as you suggest. Only the ones where the author has such a complete case of rectal cranial inversion that he's looking out his own mouth, as Rob Enderle always does. I'm still of the school of thought that journalists have a responsibility to get their facts straight, even in an op-ed piece.

Aaaaand that would be YOUR opinion. Congrats!

So, whatever, ass. Back to your corner and spare us all the personal attacks that are the surest sign of the small minded.

LOL! 3%! Threeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! :rotfl

[neuroking]

holy frik . now you guys are debating Apple(IBM) versus Intel processors.

I know! Brings me back to my High School years, only the other side this time.

( pst - Wait til they find out I'm thinking of getting a Mac mini... they'll **** a brick!)

[neuroking]

Haha Bill, seriously that was the worst post in here. ... (snip)... The good thing is that Apple is on the right track again.

This wins best post of the thread! Yay! :cheers

(Yes, I am serious)

People came here obviously for a fight. They could have just read the article, muttered "f****r" to themselves, and left. Instead they decided to shoot off their mouths. I'm happy to give em the fight. There's no right and wrong on the topic, which is what makes teh whole debate futile. Hey, probably would generate plenty of traffic if it gets posted on some Mac sites, so how could I complain? (And by plenty I mean 3% more. Threeeeeeee! LOL)

[solsun]

(And by plenty I mean 3% more. Threeeeeeee! LOL)

Here’s an article you should read:

Wintel proponents consistently fudge facts to stifle consideration of Apple Mac alternative

http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/39826.html

[dang]

While I enjoy people having good fun, I wont tolerate personal attacks. It's not fun to read. Before anyone goes over the line, please refrain and think twice before posting something.

[makeinu]

While I enjoy people having good fun, I wont tolerate personal attacks. It's not fun to read. Before anyone goes over the line, please refrain and think twice before posting something.

My apologies, dang. You are of course correct. However, I won't stand by and be insulted, especially not by someone who can't type.

Too bad that neuroking took it upon himself to edit my post before I was given the opportunity to do so.

Seeing as how I have nothing nice to say further on this issue, I won't say anymore.

In public.