Texas v. Vonage

[spankers]

What do y'all ;) think of this lawsuit?

http://news.designtechnica.com/article6914.html

I have been a Vonage subscriber for about one and a half years and have been very satisfied with the service. Vonage did not obfuscate the 911 issues when I signed up... it was very apparent.

If the consumer is aware of a products weekness (and I find it hard to believe that anyone could fail to notice the 911 issues) there should be no basis for a lawsuit.

As our country becomes more and more litigious, it becomes apparent that there is some measure of truth to the old saw, "The Only Good Lawyer Is A Dead Lawyer". ;)

Needless to say, I think this lawsuit is bulldroppings!

[llbbl]

Calling 911 shouldn't be an extra charge. It should come out of the state budget to subsidize the VoIP companies or it should just be a standard service at no addition cost >> How much would it really cost Vonage to impletment 911 standard for all of their customers??

[spankers]

The problem is not 911 implementation per se... it is the location independant nature of VoIP that make 911 implementation a pain. I have a number in the 817 area code but I could hook up the VoIP box in Amsterdam and make calls as if I were in Fort Worth.

How do you track where the VoIP box is physically? Add a GPS receiver to the box?

As it stands, when you activate and configure your Vonage service, you have the option of specifying your location for 911 purposes. It is not the same as a normal phone line, however. A normal phone line (POTS) is normally connected to a Class 5 telephone switch which has dedicated trunks to the local PSAP's (Public-Safety Answering Points). The Name/Number/Physical Address of the calling party is transferred over these trunks to the call center. Vonage, to the best of my knowledge, does not have these trunks. A 911 call from a Vonage line will ring through to the administrative lines for the call center, not the call center emergency trunks. This is where the problem lies. The administrative lines at the call center may not be manned 24 hours a day and there may be no priority to answer those lines...

"Hey Joe, your phone's ringing."
"Aw, let it go to voicemail, I need a cup of coffee and a doughnut!"

The lawsuit seems to be based on the desputed fact that Vonage was misleading consumers into believing that they had normal 911 service. This is not the case. Vonage was very straightforward about 911 service limitations which is why I believe the lawsuit is bogus.

Vonage is attempting to resolve the 911 issues but from my perspective it is a HUGE project. In addition to identifying where the VoIP boxes are physically (I don't know if this is possible without adding GPS) Vonage will also have to turn up new circuits into every 911 call center in the United States. There are three in the Dallas/Fort Worth area alone (Houston is in better shape, they have one call center for the greater Houston area). Tens of thousands of trunks to be turned up, and over 500,000 VoIP boxes to be tracked. Wow....

[llbbl]

traceroute doesn't work?

add a keypad in the box that you have to enter your zipcode (if your in the US) of where you are at.

There is a simpler solution to the GPS one.

[spankers]

traceroute doesn't work? For quite a while now IP address have not been a good way of determining even general locale/physical location, particularly if the netblock is portable.

add a keypad in the box that you have to enter your zipcode (if your in the US) of where you are at Vonage already allows you to specify physical location in the web account setup pages. One problem with this lies in that it IS customer entered.... the chances for a screwup are large. Also, you could conceivably use this for nefarious puposes. With a regular phone line the phone company enters this data as verified from the install. However, there can be problems with traditional phone service as well. For instance, a company buys a PRI or T1 fed trunks and then shares the service from one PBX to another at a different location. An emergency occurs at the remote location, 911 is called but the reported address is different from the phone companies records... ambulance or police respond to the wrong location.

With this scenario though, the company ordering the service is liable for any screwups... and normally has competent switch technicians covering this type of situation. With residential VoIP, Joe Customer, who is not a technical expert, is responsible for being aware of how 911 works.

I'm not saying that there is not a solution out there. Apparently Vonage has E911 at least partially working in Rhode Island. Considering their potential liability if something goes wrong, I am not surprised that Vonage is being conservative in the rollout of E911 for their subscribers.

A good article, if somewhat dated:
http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2004/0412voip911.html?page=1

[llbbl]

I guess you would want it to be more specific than a zip code. Adding GPS to the VoiP box is going to drive the price up $100-$200.

What about a central database of the specific snail mail address of where the phone is located? If the IP changes than they have to reregister. They could email "reminders" once week/month to verify that the address hasn't changed.

Assuming it is a valid 911 call and the ambulance can't find the person who called because a specific location can't be determined, than it should be the company's fault. However I think if it is a bogus prank call on a VoIP phone than the VoIP company should freeze their account and make the customer pay for the damages.

[spankers]

I guess you would want it to be more specific than a zip code. Adding GPS to the VoiP box is going to drive the price up $100-$200.
GPS would have a downside as well. GPS receivers need a good satellite fix and that would not work well if inside some buildings. 212dB or so of space loss makes for a very weak signal.
What about a central database of the specific snail mail address of where the phone is located? If the IP changes than they have to reregister. They could email "reminders" once week/month to verify that the address hasn't changed. This would help alleviate some of the liability concerns perhaps; but in the case of Vonage, the only address they have is from the credit card info as they bill via credit card. They do not mail statements. If you provide a credit card number not billed to your phone location address then you'd be in real trouble.

I'm sure some bright and brainy person will come up with a good solution someday. After having seen some of the fiascos involving cell phone 911 service, I don't think we'll see a comprehensive solution in the near future though.

But... as I was saying, I don't think that the lawsuit has any merit. From my experience Vonage has been forthright in disclosing the 911 problems associated with their service. If you need traditional 911 service, don't get a Vonage phone.

On an off-topic note: w00t! My girlfriend just got accepted to a Doctoral program at the University of Washington. I'll be looking for a "Network Janitor" job in Seattle, I guess. Time to do some "organic networking". Been in Texas for about twelve years and it's past time to move again.

[llbbl]

hey good deal. there are quite a few DT peeps in that area.

[llbbl]

They need to implement a product activation feature that will disable the service 2 weeks after signing up if they haven't entered a code sent to them via snail mail.

[Ioman]

I am leaning towards thinking that Vonage needs to include 911 service by default, not as an option.

[spankers]

I am leaning towards thinking that Vonage needs to include 911 service by default, not as an option. No VoIP providers do that I am aware of.

The portability of VoIP is what really causes the problems. What is your suggested solution? Do you want to mandate that a user can only use the box from a static IP address from one location?

What about softphones? Most VoIP providers give you the option of making calls from your computer as well as from the VoIP box. How do you get a location fix for a business traveler's laptop they are using for VoIP calls?

It's easy to say, "Make Vonage provide E911 service!"... but how do you actually implement this without destroying many of the strengths of VoIP?

[llbbl]

How do you get a location fix for a business traveler's laptop

1) make a code for every street address in the US and require the softphone to enter the code that corresponds to its location everytime it is activated.

2) Make the user say into the phone the address of where they are located in order for the phone to work. either record this message to be listened to by the 911 operators or use voice recognition to translate it to text to be inserted into the database.

these ideas are only for a moblie type of voip account. they should make two different "brands" or types. A 'hardline' would have a fixed location assigned to it and not able to move from that location.

[llbbl]

They have a discussion over at /. on this topic.

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/28/1938239

[llbbl]

Here are a couple of the better posts.

Re:GPS (Score:5, Insightful)
by drmerope (771119) on Thursday April 28, @05:49PM (#12376949)
So what exactly are you proposing? That the FCC require VoIP providers support transmission of location information? That the FCC require VoIP providers to properly route you to the local 911 center? That the FCC require the VoIP providers mandate that all VoIP services be location enabled?

What about people who don't want to stick a GPS dongle into their computer? What about people who *forget* to stick in the dongle when they rush to call 911? What about the people who claim to have done those things but haven't actually, and then turn around and sue?

Here's the trouble: It isn't that 911 operator needs to know where you are; you can give that information just fine. The trouble is that your call has to go to a local 911 dispatch center, not a dispatch center 3000 miles away.

If you've ever dealt with 911, then you know that they could never handle rerouting calls. Often it seems that they are barely able to properly dispatch local officers and emergency medical services.

Why do we have 911? People were observed to be stupid. The local police used to just have an emergency number. Doh, people can't remember the number. what to do, what to do... make one number for everyone, everywhere. make a big marketing campaign. yeah.

This whole problem would go away if you just had to give at least an area code as a prefix to dialing 911. Then the call could be routed to a local-state dispatcher. *Now that sounds feasible*.

As for your being beaten to death and you just barely manage to dial 911 and the police only hear the crime and trace the call... well that's sort of a fringe benefit of getting a land-land. Perhaps you should consider that before opting for other solutions.

Do we really all need to be burdened? Can some people just be free to offer bare-bones service?

Do you really want GPS tracking of your location--mandated by the government?

No location requirment (Score:5, Interesting)
by plilja (91030) on Thursday April 28, @05:30PM (#12376787)
If they follow the original proposal, there will not be a location requirement for 911, just a requirement for 911 connectivity. That is, if you dial 911 on a VoIP phone you will get a 911 operator...but you will still need to tell that operator your location. Some VoIP vendors may impliment a primary residence that gets displayed to 911 operators, but this would be optional. Currently if you dial 911 on a VoIP phone, you will only get a 911 operator if your VoIP vendor has implimented the feature voluntarily.


Re:Ask... (Score:5, Insightful)
by Fish Heads (642181) on Thursday April 28, @05:47PM (#12376927)
They can't always speak, or don't always know where they are. When I was in EMT training we got to hear quite a few 911 calls and go through the case. More than once the person started to call for help (generally due to herat attack or the like) and couldn't get as far as their name before they collapsed with the phone off the hook. Fortunately, 911 had the guys address right on the screen and had already rolled service and advised they may have to use forced entry. And if a little kid calls they may not know or be able to relay their current physical location. Or they may know but due to the trauma of mommy laying on the floor unconscious not be able to relay that info to the nice dispatcher on the other side.

Won't work. (Score:4, Informative)
by jd (1658) on Thursday April 28, @06:24PM (#12377276)
(http://slashdot.org/ | Last Journal: Saturday September 25, @03:56AM)
Any kind of VPN tunneling will make using traceroutes or pings useless for tracking purposes.


IPv6 would allow you to deduce the geographical location, as the IP address is a function of the logical location, which can then be used to infer the most probable geographical location. However, IPv4 has nothing that allows you to infer location by address. This may actually be the driving force for IPv6, given that none of the other reasons (privacy, addressability, etc) have ever worked with people.

[techfreak]

If VoIP companies want to portrait themselves as phone companies then they need to have the same features and services. How else would you dial 911 in an emergency? This is pretty stupid.

[spankers]

If VoIP companies want to portrait themselves as phone companies then they need to have the same features and services. How else would you dial 911 in an emergency? This is pretty stupid.Read up on the technical details before casting judgement.
1. IP addresses are not tied to geographic locations.
2. You can take your VoIP box anywhere in the world you want, plug it in, and dial out as if you were in the good ol' US of A.

Are you trying to say that there needs to be a law or regulation that all VoIP boxes need to have GPS receivers and report their locations to the service provider?

I for one like my VoIP service (Vonage) and did not feel that Vonage obfuscated the issues with their service. It was very plainly stated that 911 service was limited.

If you don't like VoIP features or limitations, don't use the service.

It's very easy to say "that's stupid". It's a bit harder learning a bit about the technology so you can make informed statements.

[techfreak]

I guess you can always keep the cell phone around for real emergencies eh? The commercials for these VoIP companies tell you to through away your phone and sign up with them, but I really think most people do not realize you won't get 911 support.

[llbbl]

U.S. regulators on Thursday ordered Internet telephone carriers to provide full 911 emergency calling services later this year, after hearing emotional testimony from customers who were unable to get immediate help during life-threatening crises.

The Federal Communications Commission voted unanimously to require that Internet telephone carriers ensure 911 calls from Internet phones will reach live emergency dispatchers instead of administrative lines. In addition, the carriers will have to provide callers' numbers and addresses.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=8548250