Preview of AGP 8x

[llbbl]

OCAddiction takes a closer look at the newly introduced AGP 8X specification. We've been seeing many video cards introduced lately with 8X capability but are we really going to see a major difference in video card performance? OCA has a nice write up to answer some questions you may have. Here's a snip.

" Isochronous Mode? Another buzzword we haven't heard before. Quite simply, Isochronous Mode provides predictable and uninterrupted data flow. This may not sound like much, but AGP 1.0 and 2.0 specs just could not deliver the amount of bandwidth that current applications need, such as video broadcasting and streaming video. AGP 3.0 makes it possible.

Now lets get a bit more technical for a moment and introduce clocking changes that AGP 3.0 brings about. The common clock frequency of the AGP spec remain the same, at 66MHz. However, we are now seeing source synchronous signals "strobed" at 8X the common clock frequency. Thus AGP 8X. "


Article Link: http://www.ocaddiction.com/articles/video/agp8x/

Main Link: http://www.ocaddiction.com/

[Ioman]

That chart that shows the Ti 4200 with and without 8X AGP is pretty odd considering that card does not even support AGP 8X. So the only difference is that the 4200 will get a constant 8GB/sec? I find that hard to believe, I am sure it depends on the software too.

This article is nice because it explains the difference in the different AGP speeds, but where are the tests? They could have at least shown a Radeon 9700PRO card with AGP 8x and with out it enabled.

It just looks like a collection of material by other companies....

Any opinions?

[llbbl]

Uh. I think the benchmarkes will come once the actual hardware has been released. Can anyone find a board that supports this bus speed?

[Ioman]

Originally posted by vindisco
Uh. I think the benchmarkes will come once the actual hardware has been released. Can anyone find a board that supports this bus speed?

UH. There are several motherboards on the market which support 8X AGP and the RAdeon 9700PRO video card supports AGP 8X too. There are also some Nvidia reference boards available for testing which support 8X AGP. So there is no reasson why some benchmarks could be done in house....:P

[llbbl]

Well it would be silly to release benchmarks for a product that hasn't hit the shelves yet. No one is really interested in performance, until they actually can buy it. Of course the people who made it are going to test it to verify that the product performs as expected.

Do you see any Hammer or Intel 64 bit benchmarks out?

[Ioman]

Originally posted by vindisco
Well it would be silly to release benchmarks for a product that hasn't hit the shelves yet. No one is really interested in performance, until they actually can buy it. Of course the people who made it are going to test it to verify that the product performs as expected.

Do you see any Hammer or Intel 64 bit benchmarks out?

Well you CAN review the Radeon 9700PRO which supports 8X AGP on a motherboard which supports 8XAGP too. There are motherboards AND video cards out with the new 8xAGP specs.

Personally, I would like to see the benchmarks comparing 8X AGP with 4X....even with cards not currently on the market but which will be entering soon.

[llbbl]

Ya that would be cool. I bet we get some email in our Inbox in another couple months of people benchmarking as you have described. Of course there will be plenty of PSU and Watercooling Mod article's thrown in that we will have to sift through.

[Archon]

cant wait for some games that can actually make use of 8x AGP :sure , like my doom-baby :D

[Ioman]

Originally posted by Archon
cant wait for some games that can actually make use of 8x AGP :sure , like my doom-baby :D

I think that the new Unreal (not tournament) will right?

[Archon]

oh yeah, Unreal II... hmmm, cant wait for that too! :)

[BavariaBlade]

Hi

Here is a review about AGP 8x and AGP 4x .

http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/articles.hwz?cid=3&aid=562&page=1

it is not an important feature for the TI 4200.

But for the Xabre Chip looks a little bit better with AGP 8x

http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/articles.hwz?cid=3&aid=473&page=1

I suppose that is why the Xabre has only a software Pixelshader (or Vertexshader i´m not shure), and so it has to send more datas to the CPU and RAM.
The TI4200 does this on its own chip so that the connectin to the rest of the system (the AGP BUS) is not so important . I think the Radeon 9700 will react simular to the TI4200 x8 because of its hardwareshaders.

In my opinion AGP 8 is only a marketing gag (for gaming PC´s)!!!

[Archon]

Right now, 8x AGP is rather useless, its just when games that need A LOT of bandwidth (Doom3, Unreal2 ;) ), will it come in to play.

[BavariaBlade]

OH I´m also looking forward to this games since I played Half Life:D

Lets wait and see

[ECA]

Im sorry,
I cant get into a disscussion, about graphics cards.
due to the fact, so many Love the console games and 28.4 hz of TV screens why in the world is this any better.
Anything past 30-40 frames a sec. is a waste, as you cant see any difference.
Adding to the card, vector graphics, and render graphics, and pixel shading and all those nice things is great. But, not when the CPU does all the math.
In my thinking it would be better to Store all the textures, and bit maps, on the video card, and do a direct display right from the card, and NOT waste time rendering it. Then just display it on TV output.

[BavariaBlade]

Originally posted by ECA
Im sorry,
I cant get into a disscussion, about graphics cards.
due to the fact, so many Love the console games and 28.4 hz of TV screens why in the world is this any better.
Anything past 30-40 frames a sec. is a waste, as you cant see any difference.
Adding to the card, vector graphics, and render graphics, and pixel shading and all those nice things is great. But, not when the CPU does all the math.
In my thinking it would be better to Store all the textures, and bit maps, on the video card, and do a direct display right from the card, and NOT waste time rendering it. Then just display it on TV output.

"so many Love the console games and 28.4 hz of TV screens why in the world is this any better."

28.4 Hz ??? Pal => 50 Hz ; NTSC = 60 Hz !!

"Anything past 30-40 frames a sec. is a waste"

In the cinema : yes you are right ! In cinema you only need 24 frames/s because the movie is chemical stored on a photoreactive material. In this case you automatically get a thing called Motion Compensation, this is a kind of blurry beetween the frames. This makes the moves on screen smoother.

But computer graphics doesn´t have this feature. So you need more frames for a smooth moving on screen. That is why most gamers say that you need 50- 60 frames to play a ame smooth enough.

There is also a test from 3dfx on the web which shows the difference! If i find it, I will post it.

By the way : If your screen has got only 60 Hz and you were running Quake 3 at 200 Frames / s ==> this is waste !! Because only 60 Frames of 200 were showen on Screen, A waste of 140 frames. In suche a case you shuold turn on AA and AF, then you will get less frames but a much better image quality.

"Adding to the card, vector graphics, and render graphics, and pixel shading and all those nice things is great. But, not when the CPU does all the math."

The CPU dosen´t do all that math. The new generaion of Graphic Cards do more and more of this work. One of the reasons you need to buy a new CPU for a new game (not only a new Grphic card as it shuold be) is the AI (CPU will do that math) and the verry high quality sound ( a hugh amount of Datas, you also need a lot of RAM for that).

"In my thinking it would be better to Store all the textures, and bit maps, on the video card, and do a direct display right from the card, and NOT waste time rendering it."

The bitmaps and textures are stored to the card if you load a game! That is one of the reasons why you need 64 or 128MB of Grapic RAM.
But these Bitmaps and Textures are only 2d Graphics. You must render it or your game would look like this:

[BavariaBlade]

servus Axel

[Archon]

smacked down ;)

btw, you might be hard pressed to find the 3dfx 30/60 demo, being that their site is down (I've looked for it to no avail)

[BavariaBlade]

here is the 30 - 60 frames demo.
But it only runs with 3dfx cards :mad: (not with my radeon 1)
you may try a glide wrapper, but it doesn´t work with my system:mad:

demo:

http://3dfx.infomaniak.ch/HTML_Archive2/3dfx_6030_hz_demo.htm

several glide wrapper :

http://www.voodoofiles.com/type.asp?cat_id=14


have fun
servus Axel;)

[llbbl]

BavariaBlade is so helpful! I'm glad he is around!

Good idea to point out the refresh rate of the CRT. A very well formulated response.

I am also glad that ECA is asking the questions that need to be answered. We need to find more questions like these. That is what the forums are for. Lets make sure we understand technology and the best way to use it.

[ECA]

60hz is the rate of refresh on the TV, it is the Hz from the electrical system.
That is broken down and split. The accual Video display is only 28 hz. How do I know...I did alot of video presentation with my Amiga.

[BavariaBlade]

you are talking about Interlaced video. For the ntsc 60Hz technique you need 30 frames per second (maybe 28 can work too). Each of this frame is cut into two pices: a upper and a lower fied. so you get 60 "half-frames" .
Now every 1/60 second one of these half frames is projected to your screen. This happens 60 times a second. So you will get with only 30 frames a smooth moving.

It is so hard for me to explain ... pls read this:

http://www.adobe.com/support/techguides/premiere/prmr_interlace/main.html

Newer TVs and DVD standalones (the computer is also using this technique) are usind the progressive techniqe (also called non Interlaced) this means the frames are not splitted into pieces, they are send picture by picture to TV ( you will get a much better quallity).
But the cinema movies which were stored on a DVD do have only 24 frames a second and not 60 (for ntsc 60Hz).
Now there is another technique called :pull down
The first frame is showen 2 times , the next frame 3 times, the next frame 2 times, the next frame 3 times, and so on ...
After 24 times doing that you will get your 60 frames for the 60Hz ntsc TV. Some people say that the movie is stuttering because of this reason.

That is why you also need 60 frames for a smooth gaming in computer, because it youses the progressive scan.

by the way : IMAX movies have 50 frames a second and a big film material (is this the correct word in english ?)
this is the best movie quality you will ever see!!

It is really hard to explain in english, If you don´t understand a sentence then ask me pls.

@TecknoGeek

THX , I will do my best ;)

servus Axel.

[llbbl]

The United States and most of the Western hemisphere use electrical systems operating at 110-120 volts. Almost every other country uses 220-240 volts as a standard. The 110v systems have a 60Hz cycle while most of the 220v systems operate at 50Hz. This difference in cycles per second is not normally a big deal but it can make certain items like electric clocks run faster or slower. With a few exceptions, most notably Brazil, India and South Africa, alternating current (AC) is the method used to deliver electricity. But be aware of those countries that use direct current (DC) -- it can easily destroy any equipment plugged in that wasn't made to operate in that system.


http://www.howstuffworks.com/question430.htm


Power consumption varies greatly with different technologies. CRTs are somewhat power-hungry, at about 110 watts for a typical display, especially when compared to LCDs, which average between 30 and 40 watts.

In a typical home computer setup with a CRT-based display, the monitor accounts for over 80 percent of the electricity used! Because most users don't interact with the computer much of the time it is on, the U.S. government initiated the Energy Star program in 1992. Energy Star-compliant equipment monitors user activity and suspends non-critical processes, such as maintaining a visual display, until you move the mouse or tap the keyboard. According to the EPA, if you use a computer system that is Energy Star compliant, it could save you approximately $400 a year on your electric bill! Similarly, because of the difference in power usage, an LCD monitor might cost more upfront but end up saving you money in the long run.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/monitor8.htm

Just because the monitor uses a certain wattage and the AC voltage is running at a certain frequency than it does not mean that changing the frequency will affect the video quality. You should read my post concerning the "Organic EL Display by Sony" if you have further questions about the resolution and frame rates of video.

[BavariaBlade]

:confused:

"Just because the monitor uses a certain wattage and the AC voltage is running at a certain frequency than it does not mean that changing the frequency will affect the video quality."

Who said that !?

And where is the context to ECA´s 28 Hz ?!?

Can you explain ?!

servus Axel

ps. please don´t use the translation prog. It´s much easier for me to read in english ;) .But thx for trying.

[ECA]

http://www.alkenmrs.com/video/standards.html

OK, I was wrong....
In the US it is only 15.734. because of the interlace screen it is HALF the display.

PAL is 15.625-15.750, but it is interlace also.

Have fun.

[llbbl]

Originally posted by BavariaBlade
:confused:

"Just because the monitor uses a certain wattage and the AC voltage is running at a certain frequency than it does not mean that changing the frequency will affect the video quality."

Who said that !?

And where is the context to ECA´s 28 Hz ?!?

Can you explain ?!

servus Axel

ps. please don´t use the translation prog. It´s much easier for me to read in english ;) .But thx for trying.

Let me clairify. I could be wrong, but the manufacter of the monitor is going to design it so that it will still operate optimially if the wattage decreases by a certain amount. It is probably given that it can't decrease or increase by a whole lot otherwise circuits may blow or the brightness / contrast could decrease because of not enough watts making it to the electron gun. Most basic surge protector can only protect against spikes in the line over the rated, while some of the better ones are able to condition the line to provide a constant wattage for a set amount of time.

From my understanding, without checking the physics books, Watts can be found by taking the Voltage over the Frequency. It could be Voltage over 1/Frequency, but I am not sure exactly.

I would think that the amount of charge, the voltage, would be more essential to providing a quality image on the screen than would the rate at which the volts gets to the device.

[BavariaBlade]

Quote:
"Let me clairify. I could be wrong, but the manufacter of the monitor is going to design it so that it will still operate optimially if the wattage decreases by a certain amount. It is probably given that it can't decrease or increase by a whole lot otherwise circuits may blow or the brightness / contrast could decrease because of not enough watts making it to the electron gun. Most basic surge protector can only protect against spikes in the line over the rated, while some of the better ones are able to condition the line to provide a constant wattage for a set amount of time. "

==>I suppose you confused (or is mixed the right word) watts with voltage! Normaly Voltage is the cause off the current and the power. And Voltage is the reason of accelerrating some electrons.

"From my understanding, without checking the physics books, Watts can be found by taking the Voltage over the Frequency. It could be Voltage over 1/Frequency, but I am not sure exactly.


"Watts can be found by taking the Voltage over the Frequency. It could be Voltage over 1/Frequency, but I am not sure exactly."

==>sounds interesting I only know: P=U*I=U²/R=I² * R
can you pls look it up and post it more exactly. I am studying electronics at the moment (and for the next 3,5 years). we will get this topic in a few month.

"I would think that the amount of charge, the voltage, would be more essential to providing a quality image on the screen than would the rate at which the volts gets to the device."

==> right, today it dosent metter which form of current or voltege is used .

[BavariaBlade]

GOt it !!

We were talking about 2 different hings..lol:D :D :P

Vertical vs. horiz.:P

servus Axel

[ECA]

Watts is the amount of power used.
Volts is the condition/type of the power.
AMPS is the USED power.

A light bulb dont care if the power is AC or DC. It only cares if there is enough of it. 120/110 Volts, it will used 40 watts(40 watt bulb), and cause about .7-3 amps.
Hertz(Hz) is only HOw the energy was created. 60 hz means the Pulse(wave form) that created the power (a generator) was running about 60 rpm, or was broken down from that speed for Standards. And isnt really used unless you are into electronics, in which case you can change it to the form you wish.

[Unregistered]

I have an MSI really new mother board and a Leadtek A280 Ti4800 AGP 8x. In Win XP is shows that i´m using only AGP 4x. Is it possible to uppgrade this to AGP 8x with only software or do I need to change motherboard ?

[ECA]

go to the Motherboard, HOME site, check for update/upgrades FIRST. But you will probably have to change the motherboard, as I think its HARDWARE related and not just a chip change.

[Unregistered]

Normaly you can witch between 1X 2X 4X or 8x in the bios .