Whats an affordable good DVD/SACD Player

[Ioman]

I have not been paying too much attention to this market. I know that a few months ago, Denon had a multi compatible DVD-A/SACD player which played both formats. It of course was very expensive. Have newer players from other manufacturers entered the market which could play both formats? If so, what is a good price on a good player?

I enjoy music but do not want two players for each format.

Thanks

[Archon]

you want a player that does BOTH? you're not going to find ANY cheap ones

[Ioman]

Originally posted by Archon
you want a player that does BOTH? you're not going to find ANY cheap ones

Any idea wher eI may find ANY players that play both? Also, what is a good estimate on the price of one of these players?

[Archon]

oh, I misread your earlier post ;)

Heres a Marantz

http://www.marantz.com/p_product.cfm?id=1769&cont=u&line=sacd&cat=hf

$1359.00

http://www.50topsellers.com/mardvinstoc.html

[Archon]

besides, dont waste money on DVD-A or SACD, they arent going to work well. BRD has a much brighter future.

[ShadowDemonX]

I'd just wait it out for a little bit, as with any new product...it is going to be expensive:mad: ...wait until you get a significant price drop...Basically the only type of music that is in the DVD-A and SACD formats is Jazz due to that fact that people appreciate rich fruity instamental music....::barf::!

[Ioman]

Originally posted by ShadowDemonX
I'd just wait it out for a little bit, as with any new product...it is going to be expensive:mad: ...wait until you get a significant price drop...Basically the only type of music that is in the DVD-A and SACD formats is Jazz due to that fact that people appreciate rich fruity instamental music....::barf::!

Actually, both SACD and DVD-A have been on the market for some time. The sad thing is that due to lower than what I would consider demand, prices has remained inflated and the players have been marketed as more of a luxury item. I would love to own one though.

I am not convinced that the COGS are any higher than a regular DVD or CD player.

[neuroking]

I just got an Audigy 2 Platinum and Klipsch Promedia 5.1 speaker system, and found that the A2 supports DVD-A discs, and comes with a sampler disc. All I can say is WOW! I have not bought music in the last, oh, 6 years, but went out and bought 3 DVD-As immediately. The quality is simply amazing.

There are 3 players that I have investigated for my home theatre system. An Onkyo that is jsut being released (THX Ultra certified, ~$1100), a cheaper Pioneer (~$500), and the Marantz (~$1300). If you are not sure about DVD-A/SACD being for you, but you're in the market for a sound card upgrade, I suggest dropping $100 on and Audigy 2 (doesn't need to be platinum), and $250 on a mid range 5.1 speaker setup. $350!??! If you decide dvda.sacd isn't for you, you at least have a kick ass computer sound system, whereas with a stereo component, you've just blown the budget for something you'll never use.

Well, I guess you can always return any of those. Oh, and if you have a regular DVD player or Playstation 2 and a HT receiver, just connect up the optical out, and drop by Tower Records and pick up a DVD-A. This method isn't true DVD-A quality, but it gives you a good first time feel for the difference.

The selection of DVD-As is horrid right now. There must be <50 from all genres of music combined, and SACD doesn't fare much better. I'd say there are <200 SACDs. Most stores don't carry either (Best Buy, etc.), but music stores will. My DVD-As were all around $15. Really not bad, if you ask me. Just FYI....

Just my $.02
Brandon

[Ioman]

Originally posted by neuroking
I just got an Audigy 2 Platinum and Klipsch Promedia 5.1 speaker system, and found that the A2 supports DVD-A discs, and comes with a sampler disc. All I can say is WOW! I have not bought music in the last, oh, 6 years, but went out and bought 3 DVD-As immediately. The quality is simply amazing.

There are 3 players that I have investigated for my home theatre system. An Onkyo that is jsut being released (THX Ultra certified, ~$1100), a cheaper Pioneer (~$500), and the Marantz (~$1300). If you are not sure about DVD-A/SACD being for you, but you're in the market for a sound card upgrade, I suggest dropping $100 on and Audigy 2 (doesn't need to be platinum), and $250 on a mid range 5.1 speaker setup. $350!??! If you decide dvda.sacd isn't for you, you at least have a kick ass computer sound system, whereas with a stereo component, you've just blown the budget for something you'll never use.

Well, I guess you can always return any of those. Oh, and if you have a regular DVD player or Playstation 2 and a HT receiver, just connect up the optical out, and drop by Tower Records and pick up a DVD-A. This method isn't true DVD-A quality, but it gives you a good first time feel for the difference.

The selection of DVD-As is horrid right now. There must be <50 from all genres of music combined, and SACD doesn't fare much better. I'd say there are <200 SACDs. Most stores don't carry either (Best Buy, etc.), but music stores will. My DVD-As were all around $15. Really not bad, if you ask me. Just FYI....

Just my $.02
Brandon

So with your audigy 2 setup, what type of a computer DVD player do you need in order to play the DVD-A discs? Thanksf or the heads up on the availability of the DVD-A/SACD discs, I may just wait until the price of the players come down some, or there is a greater music selection. Heck, my home speakers are 10 year old Advents, hardly anything of quality. I still would like a combo player as music is very important to me....this is a tough decision.

[Archon]

Best Buy carries SACDs, they're in the back near the warehouse entrance

[ECA]

http://www.apexdigitalinc.com/proddisp.asp?category=DVD%20Players

Apex, has them down to $100
They are made somewhat cheap, but WHO cares.

[neuroking]

Originally posted by Ioman


So with your audigy 2 setup, what type of a computer DVD player do you need in order to play the DVD-A discs? Thanksf or the heads up on the availability of the DVD-A/SACD discs, I may just wait until the price of the players come down some, or there is a greater music selection. Heck, my home speakers are 10 year old Advents, hardly anything of quality. I still would like a combo player as music is very important to me....this is a tough decision.

I jsut have an old 8x Toshiba DVD from, jeez, 4 years ago. The only thinkg that matters is digital out line, that runs from the DVD drive to the Audigy 2.

I have an old set of polk RM series speakers, and even they sound okay with DVD-A. Also, not that DVD-A is more confusing than SACD in general. SACD just has the whole 2 layers thing (HQ and normal). DVD-A has all the extras similar to the difference between VHS and DVD-V, but there are multiple track formats for mutiple speaker setups on 1 disc, at multiple sampling rates. When you pay for a DVD-A player, you are paying for the HQ, 6 channel sound, but a regular DVD player w/ optical out will give you '5.1' sound already.

I have yet to find a site that really breaks down the end user basics of the whole thing, so post if you find a good one. Some info:
http://www.soundblaster.com/dvd-audio/
Here's a list of available albums (more than I thought, but more than I've seen available online or in stores):
http://www.soundblaster.com/resources/read.asp?articleid=71

Hope that helps..
Brandon

[Ioman]

At CES this year, we have seen several SACD/DVDA combo units for around $599. So at least they are dropping a little bit. They are still pretty expensive in my opinion.

[ECA]

DID nobody go to my Link....
Duh! thay have them for around $100

[Ioman]

Originally posted by ECA
DID nobody go to my Link....
Duh! thay have them for around $100

We went to your link. .... APEX do not count bro. It may be compatible with SACD or DVDA but it certainly doesnt SOUND like SACD or DVDA lol. I need a higher bit rate and a good THD man.:cool:

[ECA]

For the price, they do have coax digital audio out and Svideo output. along with dolby, should be fine.

[llbbl]

Originally posted by Ioman


We went to your link. .... APEX do not count bro. It may be compatible with SACD or DVDA but it certainly doesnt SOUND like SACD or DVDA lol. I need a higher bit rate and a good THD man.:cool:

Total Harmonic Distortion. A measure of the distortion content of a signal as represented by equivalent harmonics of that signal and specified as a percentage of the signal amplitude. While the equivalent harmonics represented do not actually exist in the signal, their summation would reproduce the distortion component of the signal. Further, filter separation of the signal into its fundamental and harmonic frequencies yields the harmonics for identification and measurement comparison with the fundamental.

http://www.audio-direct.com/Questions/feature_guide/definitions.htm


YOU MEAN, OF COURSE :) NOT A DOCTORATE IN THEOLOGY

http://www.bu.edu/bulletins/sth/item02.html

[llbbl]

I think Ioman is talking out his ass. I could not find a THD rating on the AD-2500, what looked to be the top of the line product. I sent a quick note to the Public relations people. Maybe we will get one to review, that would be excellent. Someone with a surround sound system should review it tho.

DVD Customer Service / Technical Support
Apex Digital, Inc.
2919 East Philadelphia Sreet.
Ontario, CA 91761
(909) 930-1239

Press / Public Relations
pr@apexdigitalinc.com

Research and Development
pdc@apexdigitalinc.com

[llbbl]

Public Relations,

I am the senior editor of designtechnica.com, a website where we discuss consumer electronics. We were interested in knowing what the Total Harmonic Distortion for the Apex AD-2500 was. There is a current debate as to of the quality of your machines and I would like some more information to use in defense of your case. Thank you very much.



Here is what I said. I will let you know if they say anything useful.

I even went searching to find more info on more accepted CD players. I found that THD is not a common rating on CD players, but is more often found on recievers.

See even this Philips box did not have the spec listed.

http://www.consumer.philips.com/global/b2c/ce/catalog/product.jhtml;jsessionid=3V1WA321QP3YYCRQNAVRX2AKG BUTSHAW?divId=0&groupId=VIDEO&catId=SUPERAUDIOCDCAT&subCatId=SUPERAUDIOCD1&productId=DVD962SA_17

[llbbl]

Well anyways. I did a little searching for a DVD-a SACD player and this is what I found.

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=DVD-A+SACD+

$249 for a Sony :(

I can't find anything else but Sony. Which is pretty horrible brand, we all know. That Philips that I found only plays SACD's. I think they have one model that might play both, but I can't seem to find it yet.

[Archon]

Apex... why not just go get an LP, it will have the same quality

[ECA]

http://www.philips.se/InformationCenter/NO/FArticleDetail.asp?lArticleId=1562&lNodeId

http://www.superaudiocd.philips.com/InformationCenter/NO/FPressRelease.asp?lArticleId=3440&lNodeId

http://www.philips.com.hk/Assets/Downloadablefile/SACD(2)-621.pdf

http://www.philips.com.hk/Assets/Downloadablefile/SACD(2)-621.pdf
Look at the address change..

Hope this helps.
Still no prives but they do DVD also.

[neuroking]

Originally posted by ECA
For the price, they do have coax digital audio out and Svideo output. along with dolby, should be fine.

ERRR! Wrong! Sorry, but we have some lovely parting gifts for you...

DVD-Audio is a completely different beast from DTS surround DVDs with audio tracks, Namely, the sampling rates are over double for true DVD-Audio discs. DTS DVDs are nice... much better than CDs... but can't compare to 96KHz encoding. See the link I posted above.

FYI-This is BY FAR the worst part of DVD-Audio. No one seems to be able to use a consistent naming convention. I mean, most people assume DVD stand for Digital Video Disc - is stands for Digital Versatile Disc - but I think the versatility has worked against it. Before considering high end audio, research the formats thuroughly. I mean, I good 2-3 hours before you get a 'feel' for it. Things like multiple tracks with different numbers of channels at different rates, some with video content, etc.

In the end, though, true DVD-Audio is better than SACD, but whether it catches on is another thing. SACD has Sony on their side, which is also a media company, so SACDs are more prolific right now. I would love to see both coexist peacefully, but that rarely happens.

Now go do your homework! Class dismissed!

Brandon

[ECA]

Instead of adding more songs to an album, DVD-A and SACD designate more audio data per track. It all starts with the sampling rate -- the higher the better. The audio CD has a sampling rate of 44.1 KHz, whereas DVD-A has a studio standard frequency of 96 KHz, and the SACD has a frequency of an astounding 2.8 MHz per channel.

http://www.techtv.com/freshgear/jump/0,23009,3371801,00.html

DVD-A has a peak frequency of 48 KHz, while SACD captures frequencies up to 100 KHz. Increasing the sampling rate, resolution, and peak frequency of a track do justice to the original recording by capturing more of the audio spectrum.

NK...Suck it up... PAY attention.

AND I havent seen DTS on any of these machines.
Both formats DO support 6.0 surround sound tho.

[llbbl]

I think both you guys are right. No fighting over specs! :D

[neuroking]

Originally posted by ECA
[B]Instead of adding more songs to an album, DVD-A and SACD designate more audio data per track. It all starts with the sampling rate -- the higher the better. The audio CD has a sampling rate of 44.1 KHz, whereas DVD-A has a studio standard frequency of 96 KHz, and the SACD has a frequency of an astounding 2.8 MHz per channel.

http://www.techtv.com/freshgear/jump/0,23009,3371801,00.html

DVD-A has a peak frequency of 48 KHz, while SACD captures frequencies up to 100 KHz. Increasing the sampling rate, resolution, and peak frequency of a track do justice to the original recording by capturing more of the audio spectrum.


Mmmmm Tech TV.... that bastion of accurancy... You're confusing DATA rate with SAMPLING rate. here:

Compression Standards
Bits :
DVD Audio: 16-24
SACD: 1 (with some tricks to make it sound like 20)

Playback Frequency Range :
DVD Audio: 192 kHz total (6 ch - 48 kHz/2 ch - 96 kHz)
SACD: 100 kHz

Sound/ noise ratio :
DVD Audio: 144 dB
SACD: 120 dB

Data rate
DVD Audio: 9.6 Mbps
SACD: 2.8 Mbps

Storage capacity :
DVD Audio: 4.7GB - Single layer/8.5GB - Dual Layer/
SACD: 4.7GB - Single layer *note:SACD has 2 layers, but one is only CD quality, so NOT hi res.

The big deal is SACD uses DSD instead of PCM, but since no receiver supports DSD (besides a few Sony ones - and no audiophile would be caught dead with a Sony receiver), it will be converted to PCM anyways.

But SACD has a higher max freq response.

But the upper end for both are beyond human hearing and only matter if youhave an acoustically 'pure' listening environment.

But DVD-A has better signal:noise, so a cleaner sound.

But, same situation. Are you listening to it in a sound studio?

As I said, part of the confusion lies in this mess:
http://www.surroundmusic.net/whatis.html

Then there's the issue of SACD being owned by Philips and Sony vs. DVD-A being an open format.

TADA! In the end, unless you are a world class orchestra conductor, you will not be able to tell the difference.

And what does it all mean? If you have to have high res audio now, get a hybrid player and stop worrying. It makes no sense to get one or the other. Hell, go get the same SACD and DVD-A and post a reply to the thread. I would be interested to hear your take.

Any other questions?

[ECA]

http://www.philips.com.hk/InformationCenter/NO/FArticleDetail.asp?lArticleId=1554

I understand what you are saying and I BELIEVE in the Open standard.

I also believe in covering bases. As most of these players will PLAY BOTH, DVD-A and SACD. Where a DVD-A player will NOT play SACD.

As some of the info you have isnt quite right. They have 3 formats for SACD. One of with is Dual layer 9.4 gig, Sec, is Single layer SACD and then Hybred with is CD/SACD incoded.

[llbbl]

Waaay to clear away some of the fog NK ! That gives us a good idea of the differences. I am sure that ECA was just trying to help us understand how the two standards compare.

[neuroking]

Originally posted by ECA

I also believe in covering bases. As most of these players will PLAY BOTH, DVD-A and SACD. Where a DVD-A player will NOT play SACD.


Well, any DVD-A player will play the CD quality layer of an SACD, sicne it is red book compliant. No SACD only player will play anything from a DVD-A. Still, buest to shell out the extra $100 and get a hybrid that plays both.


As some of the info you have isnt quite right. They have 3 formats for SACD. One of with is Dual layer 9.4 gig, Sec, is Single layer SACD and then Hybred with is CD/SACD incoded. [/B]

I thought to be red book compliant (ie recognized by a standard CD player) SACDs had to have 1 layer devoted to reb book CD. Youcouldn't compress or increase the desity of the writing, or it violates that.

I guess you can have a dual layer high res only SACD, but I doubt it would make it past marketting. Same reason there is a DVD-V compatible audio segment on DVD-As: so people with regular equipment can listen. plus, it allows for someone to say "Listen to the difference! *click* (SACD playing) *click* (CD playing) Ooooooo!" For the sake of mass appeal and public consumption, I'm sure both formats will continue to include layers that are compatible with some piece of standard stereo/home theater equipment.

SACDs with standard Reb Book CD audio have to sacrifice a whole layer, hence the 4.7 GB.

Now what would be wicked is a dual laser reader that could read two layers at max rates. Welcome 7.1 channel music! (no idea here, just blabbing)

One weird thing to consider is that Sony and Philips are working on SACD acceptance. BUT, Philips has been very vocal about endorsing non-copy protected CDs, and Sony is a media company. I guess it depends on who is sleeping in whom's bed. Maybe Sony will lighten up (and ditch ATRAC please!), or maybe Philips will become Sony's preverbial beatch. Who knows. More importantly, who cares. Just covering all the bases....

:crazy
Yeepa!

[Ioman]

I did some research for "K2" another forum member and I found a couple kick ass players. Here is the thread, you will be able to see what I recommended to him.

http://forums.designtechnica.com/showthread.php?threadid=1279